Marijuana and every other drug.

[irmerk]

I'd like to hear what people on here have to say on marijuana legalization, as well as all other criminalized drugs. I suspect most people will be for cannabis decriminalization, however I doubt many will be for other drugs as well. Either or any way, I would like to hear and have a discussion about it!

Some of the videos I've found on the subject - which are pro legalization - are a testimony in court, a crazy mans opinion, Noam Chomsky on the prohibition's history, two minute truths, an experts opinion and a 'conspiracy' theory. Furthermore, I have made an article on my blog in which I attempted to address all aspects of the entire issue. Yes, it seems like shameless self promotion, but I have yet to find another article that addresses as much as I try to. If you have better ones, please link.

In short, I think marijuana above all else should be legalized; it would self regulate with pharmaceutical companies being held accountable for the product and individuals able to grow their own - much like brewing alcohol - and not sell until a license is obtained. This would provide much needed freedom, cut down on innocent people being incarcerated and give a boost to the GDP and tax revenue.

Other than cannabis, all other drugs should be decriminalized and regulated as well. The more dangerous a drug is, the more reason to regulate it. Any substance use in any society is treated in respect to much a person abuses it; alcoholics are not treated or viewed the same way as your average person who drinks beer.

This lacks the extensive overview of all of my ideas, but I lack the skills to make it more concise; I suggest watching all of the videos and maybe even reading my blog. Anyway, say what you think and justify it.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

If you're talking medical marijuana, I'm all for it. Recreational use? I'm not convinced that it is a good idea, but I don't have what you would call strong feelings about legalization. I do know that drugs aren't generally good for you, and that includes marijuana... so I find much of the legalization talk to be deeply dishonest. On the other hand, I'd be happy to see the drug war be replaced with mandatory drug treatment.

 

[edib0y]

If such devastating thing as alcohol is legal, then there in no reason for marijuana to be legal. Weed is not nearly as unhealthy as smoking or alcohol.

About other drugs I'm not so sure. Heroin is really bad, not sure about it. But on the other hand - mine body, mine choice...

 

[ImprobableJoe]

If such devastating thing as alcohol is legal, then there in no reason for marijuana to be legal. Weed is not nearly as unhealthy as smoking or alcohol.

Sorry, but that's more of an argument to make smoking and alcohol illegal.

 

[RestrictedAccess]

Legalization and regulation of cannabis for any use seems like a logical way to go when you consider the already legal drugs we have available to us. Not only is the cannabis plant useful in many ways, the drug is non-addictive and relatively harmless in comparison to alcohol or many legal pharmaceuticals.

I would like to see all drugs legalized and regulated, but when it comes to stuff like cocaine or meth, the situation becomes more complicated. My philosophy is, if you want to kill yourself with harmful drugs, then far be it from me to stop you. As long as the drugs aren't causing you to become a danger to anyone else, and I don't have to foot the bill for your addiction, I really couldn't care less. However, how do we deal with those who DO become addicted to stuff like meth or cocaine as a result of legalization? What's more, what would be the large scale result of legalizing the hard core drugs? The black market sales are likely to drop, and with it the violence related to the sale of it - but there will no doubt be negative consequences of having it legal.

In my opinion, we should start small and legalize drugs one at a time over a period of several decades. If it looks like the negative aspects of legalizing the drug outweigh the positive aspects, then we're probably better off with the stuff being illegal in the first place.

 

[GoodKat]

One thing I worry about with the harder, heavily addictive drugs, is that by criminalizing their use, you restrict a person' liberty, but if the person gets addicted, the drug itself restricts their liberty by beating the hell out of them if they try to stop.

 

[irmerk]

Alright, awesome! This is the kind of discussion I was hoping for. With all due respect, I disagree at least to a small degree with all of you; I will try to address everything I think:

... Recreational use? I'm not convinced that it is a good idea ... I do know that drugs aren't generally good for you, and that includes marijuana ... On the other hand, I'd be happy to see the drug war be replaced with mandatory drug treatment.

As said quite well by GoodKat: Restricting someones consumption of substances is restriction of liberty. It reminds me of arguments - though grossly oversimplified and wrong - against socialism over capitalism: "I don't want the government telling me I can't do what I want to do!" Victimless drugs are unjustified in being illegal. The vast minority of people using any drug are abusers. Marijuana is by far one of the least harmful drugs there are; this is on top of the fact that it has many benefits. Aspirin can kill someone, and has; marijuana cannot kill someone. Prescription drugs have serious, and even fatal, side effects; marijuana does not. I think it comes down to a matter of magnitude or scope; anything can be bad if too much and or too little is used (fast food, alcohol, cigarettes, water). I do agree with the last part: Legalization would reduce innocent incarcerations, increase revenues, decrease spending and increase freedom. Treatment outperforms prohibition.

If such [a] devastating thing as alcohol is legal, then there in no reason for marijuana to be [il]legal. Weed is not nearly as unhealthy as smoking or alcohol.
About other drugs I'm not so sure. Heroin is really bad, not sure about it. But on the other hand - mine body, mine choice...

This is true, but oversimplifying it to a comparison of alcohol, tobacco and marijuana leaves out all of the hundreds of prescription drugs which are legal and regulated. Heroin is bad, sure. Caffeine is addictive, too. Like I said, the fact that a drug is bad does not count as a reason to criminalize it; it counts as even more of a reason to legalize and regulate it - making it safer. Yes, it really is your choice. A drug's addictiveness does not create crime or atrocities, prohibition does.

Sorry, but that's more of an argument to make smoking and alcohol illegal.

Nay, making a drug illegal due to small or moderate negative side effects makes it all the more dangerous. Legalizing it holds companies producing it responsible for the product, making it safer. Standards, licenses, prescriptions, warnings, therapy, advice and other things make these things better and acceptable. Again, because something that people consciously choose to do puts them at risk does not mean it should be banned. Big Mac's really lack substantial benefits to consumers...

Legalization and regulation of cannabis for any use seems like a logical way to go when you consider the already legal drugs we have available to us. Not only is the cannabis plant useful in many ways, the drug is non-addictive and relatively harmless in comparison to alcohol or many legal pharmaceuticals.

I agree completely.

I would like to see all drugs legalized and regulated, but when it comes to stuff like cocaine or meth, the situation becomes more complicated. My philosophy is, if you want to kill yourself with harmful drugs, then far be it from me to stop you. As long as the drugs aren't causing you to become a danger to anyone else, and I don't have to foot the bill for your addiction, I really couldn't care less. However, how do we deal with those who DO become addicted to stuff like meth or cocaine as a result of legalization? What's more, what would be the large scale result of legalizing the hard core drugs? The black market sales are likely to drop, and with it the violence related to the sale of it - but there will no doubt be negative consequences of having it legal.

A productive citizen who takes meth, cocaine, or ecstasy, goes to a party, wakes up in the morning, makes himself breakfast and goes to work should be able to do that if he or she pleases. True, if it does not detriment you or anyone else, it should be fair game. There are many practical methods and strategies for dealing with alcoholics, stoners and other substance abusers; they do not get attention or support because crap like 'Above The Influence' advertisements rule the airwaves and organizations for the propagation of drugs evil nature are so heavily funded by alcohol and tobacco companies - they hate competition, damn capitalists. Maybe I am wrong on what I will say right now, but a universal health system or government sponsored rehabilitation does come out of your pocket; however, less comes out than when we prohibit and criminalize these things. Countries with legal substances that are illegal here (the U.S.) have a lower consumption rate - legalization does not lead to increased consumption and addiction.

In my opinion, we should start small and legalize drugs one at a time over a period of several decades. If it looks like the negative aspects of legalizing the drug outweigh the positive aspects, then we're probably better off with the stuff being illegal in the first place.

This is an interesting idea. I like it.

One thing I worry about with the harder, heavily addictive drugs, is that by criminalizing their use, you restrict a person' liberty, but if the person gets addicted, the drug itself restricts their liberty by beating the hell out of them if they try to stop.

It is the persons choice to restrict his or her own liberty; all the more reason to regulate the drugs and make sure warning labels, for example, are on them.

 

[Spase]

It is the persons choice to restrict his or her own liberty; all the more reason to regulate the drugs and make sure warning labels, for example, are on them.

I'm sure I'll post more later because this is a topic I've done a lot of thinking about but I'll start short. I favor the legalization of marijuana. I do not favor the legalization of "hard" drugs.

Experimenting with alcohol or weed is vastly different than experimenting with meth, cocain, or heroin. The reason is that alcohol and weed are novel experiences that are fun - whatever. Meth, cocain, and heroin are all delicious. By that I mean the rate at which people are sucked into addiction will go up a *lot* at least at first.

I think it's possible it would go back down eventually... and there would be a lot of benefits to having it legal... but I put those drugs in completely different categories.

I'm speaking from my own experience. I spent years addicted to meth as a dealer. I watched a *lot* of people progress through addiction and feel like I have a pretty good idea what it looks like. I also did a lot of research when I finally got clean several years ago on addiction and the biochemistry involved.

I'm not positive legalizing everything is a bad idea but I'm sure legalizing weed is a good idea.

 

[Aught3]

If heroin or meth was legalised tomorrow would anyone here want to try it?

I'm sure legalising marijuana is a good idea, maybe other drugs available on prescription so we can keep track of addicts.

 

[irmerk]

Experimenting with alcohol or weed is vastly different than experimenting with meth, cocain, or heroin. The reason is that alcohol and weed are novel experiences that are fun - whatever. Meth, cocain, and heroin are all delicious. By that I mean the rate at which people are sucked into addiction will go up a *lot* at least at first.
I think it's possible it would go back down eventually... and there would be a lot of benefits to having it legal... but I put those drugs in completely different categories.
I'm speaking from my own experience. I spent years addicted to meth as a dealer. I watched a *lot* of people progress through addiction and feel like I have a pretty good idea what it looks like. I also did a lot of research when I finally got clean several years ago on addiction and the biochemistry involved.
I'm not positive legalizing everything is a bad idea but I'm sure legalizing weed is a good idea.

Sure, DMT, for example, is not in the same category as caffeine. So, yeah, I guess this thread is about two distinct yet relative topics - marijuana and harder drugs. Still, there are preventative measures for people getting addicted and rehabilitation and therapy methods for those who do. Not everyone using the substances will abuse them, and those who do will be treated respectively.

If heroin or meth was legalised tomorrow would anyone here want to try it?
I'm sure legalising marijuana is a good idea, maybe other drugs available on prescription so we can keep track of addicts.

I would not care to try some drugs; the point is they should be allowed to be tried. Yes, prescription is a nice example of how to keep a check on addicts.

 

[GoodKat]

It is the persons choice to restrict his or her own liberty; all the more reason to regulate the drugs and make sure warning labels, for example, are on them.

If there was a room with cake in it that never ran out, but became less sweet every time you ate it, and when you went into the room, there was a chance that it would lock, and you wouldn't be able to leave without bejackergatiating yourself, and the longer you stay, the longer you will have to bejackergatiate yourself to get out. Bejackergatiation is extremely painful, but you don't and can't quite grasp the level of pain, and you don't know what the chances are of the room locking on you. Should you be allowed into the room?

 

[irmerk]

If there was a room with cake in it that never ran out, but became less sweet every time you ate it, and when you went into the room, there was a chance that it would lock, and you wouldn't be able to leave without bejackergatiating yourself, and the longer you stay, the longer you will have to bejackergatiate yourself to get out. Bejackergatiation is extremely painful, but you don't and can't quite grasp the level of pain, and you don't know what the chances are of the room locking on you. Should you be allowed into the room?

I do not understand what bejackergatiate means, and I do not think this is a good analogy to addictive drugs or what I have been saying. I will assume bejackergatiate means to 'go cold turkey' or something.

First of all, it seems like there would be no way to leave the room since the longer you stay, the longer you 'bejackergatiate,' which in turn led to more time spent in the room and thus more 'bejackergatiation' needed. Secondly, if it does mean cold turkey, then you are ruling out the option of rehabilitation or weening yourself off of a drug. Next, research, therapy, medicine, science, law and other checks put on drugs would provide a warning and explanation of the pain and the chances of being locked.

I still cannot think of a realistic situation to humor the idea of never knowing how painful it would be and the chances of being locked in.

 

[GoodKat]

I still cannot think of a realistic situation to humor the idea of never knowing how painful it would be and the chances of being locked in.

That was my attempt, it was of course imperfect. I guess it boils down to "should a person have the liberty to do something that will take away their liberty, even if they don't understand that it will?"

 

[Spase]

Still, there are preventative measures for people getting addicted and rehabilitation and therapy methods for those who do. Not everyone using the substances will abuse them, and those who do will be treated respectively.

There's some truth to the assertion that not everyone who tries the substances will keep using them but there is vast evidence that continued use will result in abuse.

Of the hundreds of meth addicts I've known personally I met maybe two people who didn't fall apart eventually. I use the word addict interchangeably with the word user here to be clear. I'm not saying that addicts all fell apart I'm saying everyone I knew who was using meth fell apart.

People underestimate how effectively we can condition ourselves into valuing something. The reason people like to play sports or are passionate about their work or enjoy spending time with friends and family are all just chemical reactions. None of those things compare to meth in terms of its chemical stimulus. Addiction isn't something that you want to break but can't, it's just a description of reaching the state where you know how much more enjoyable using meth is than any alternative activity... The thing that people don't understand is the addict isn't wrong. It isn't false happiness, it's chemical just like any other happiness.

Depending on a person's individual chemical make-up they might be very easily conditioned or much more resistant to conditioning but in my experience with continued use just about everyone ends up conditioned.

My comments here are about meth because it's the area I have the most experience. Addiction in general is pretty similar in the cases of all the happy-making drugs but I can't claim the personal observation of that many heroin users or crack users on a regular basis.

 

[irmerk]

That was my attempt, it was of course imperfect. I guess it boils down to "should a person have the liberty to do something that will take away their liberty, even if they don't understand that it will?"

Of course they should. Again, as I have said, there would be very ample warnings, explanation and instruction. I mean, my brother became addicted to Final Fantasy XI, or whichever number was the MMORPG, and is still addicted to this day to World of Warcraft. Sure, it lacks exact equivalency, but it has somewhat of the same idea. He also is addicted to his anti-depressants and running back to our mother for financial help; he has no friends. It is his choice.

 

[irmerk]

There's some truth to the assertion that not everyone who tries the substances will keep using them but there is vast evidence that continued use will result in abuse...

The rest of the quote seemed to lack sentences able to be commented on. Yes, I understand people will become addicted. Again, many, many checks and preventative measures, as well as rehabilitation methods, would be employed by money currently spent hunting addicts and dealers down. If they want to do it, why should you be able to stop them?

 

[Spase]

[...] Yes, I understand people will become addicted. Again, many, many checks and preventative measures, as well as rehabilitation methods, would be employed by money currently spent hunting addicts and dealers down. If they want to do it, why should you be able to stop them?

I can think of a lot of good reasons. An example would be the general increase in health insurance because of a huge influx of people with serious medical conditions arising from drug use. Possibly more of a problem would be the addicts who had lost medical coverage and were showing up in emergency rooms putting even more strain on the medical system.

I do see where you're coming from.. and I think there's a good chance that overall savings might be enough to make it work with government funded rehabilitation which is absolutly cheaper than incarceration.

The other major positive effect it would have is ending a lot of organized crime violence we're seeing in Mexico right now (which is just an example of the killing that's happened all over South America for drug cartels) would just disappear.

Like I said in my post before that, I'm not against legalizing everything. I'm not convinced but I can think of enough reasons it would improve things I'm certainly willing to consider it. I've done a lot of thinking on it and it just isn't obvious to me either way.

I'm sorry if my last post seemed a bit defensive, I certainly didn't mean it to be. My point was just that drugs are more dangerous than a lot of people realize and addiction in general is a concept a lot of people frame incorrectly in their mind. Should people be protected from themselves? I don't know. It is my opinion that hard drug use would fall significantly over time if weed was legalized though. Like I said, that part at least I'm sure on.

There is certainly an underlying philosophical question of what is and is not appropriate to legislate.

 

[irmerk]

Your second paragraph answered your first for me.

I'm sorry if my last post seemed a bit defensive, I certainly didn't mean it to be. My point was just that drugs are more dangerous than a lot of people realize and addiction in general is a concept a lot of people frame incorrectly in their mind. Should people be protected from themselves? I don't know. It is my opinion that hard drug use would fall significantly over time if weed was legalized though. Like I said, that part at least I'm sure on.

I do not mean to get defensive either, it is just my way of conversing. I honestly did not ever think of how you portrayed addiction - so that was quite informative. I think liberty and freedom are two beneficiary constructs adopted by the society; 'protecting' people from themselves does not sound productive or fair. Netherlands, with avidly legal and abundant marijuana, has a lower marijuana use percentage than the U.S.

 

[DrunkFetus]

I think all drugs should be legal. I mean, in most cases, the laws against the drugs are more harmful to the users than the drugs themselves. Plus, the government shouldn't regulate personal habits.

 

[AntiSkill42]

I think all drugs should be legal. I mean, in most cases, the laws against the drugs are more harmful to the users than the drugs themselves. Plus, the government shouldn't regulate personal habits.

--> ADVOCATUS DIABOLI says:

I say we just outlaw all drugs.

Except for perscripted medication.

Drugs reduce the capability of the individual to contribute productively to the society.

So unless you want to harm everyone -outlaw all drugs.

And create other possibilities for people to enjoy themselves and relax.

With the increased productivity and the money we save in health-care it would be easily affordable to create free parks, theaters, baths and clubs...