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Is evolution a fact?

arg-fallbackName="Mr_Wilford"/>
Bernhard.visscher said:
Ok so you say evolution is change in in heritable traits. I ask you for your best piece of evidence and you state " not to familiar..."

Kindly when you define evolution at least have evidence to back up your assertion.

We are going down same road as simple to complex.

Now you agree with the definition: evolution is change in inherited traits over successive generations.

Give me your best evidence. If your not too familiar go back to the corner you came from and have evidence before making assertions

I know of examples, just not enough to claim any are "bigger" than the others.

How about new traits being passed down through generations?

See, there's a very simple process by which new, novel genes can be added to the genome. It's called Gene Duplication

Basically, let's take one gene, called TTAC. During replication, mutational errors known as duplications can take place. So now, instead of TTAC, we have TTACTTAC. Two copies of the same gene. Usually this is harmless, as this only causes the organism to produce more of whatever the gene encodes for.

Now, lets say we get a point mutation. Now the genes are TTAGTTAC

The mutation makes the first copy broken. If this was the only copy, the organism would be harmed. But this individual has two copies, so it is not harmed.

Now, lets have a different point mutation take place: TTAATTAC

Now, with that mutation, the gene can produce functional proteins. But it has a different code, so now, we have a copy of the original gene, and a NEW variant as well. This time, it will code for a new version of the protein the organism did not posses before the duplication event. New "information", if you will.

Examples of this happening? Here's one: http://www.umich.edu/~zhanglab/clubPaper/11_02_2012.pdf

This paper describes how gene duplication can add not just one new gene variant, but over 32 novel gene variants in about 3000 generations. Here's what they did:

First the researchers got a bacteria (Salmonella enterica in this case)
with a particular gene, called HisA. This gene gave the bacteria a weak ability to survive without the amino acids histidine and tryptophan.  The gene produced an enzyme that could (again, weakly) catalyze the production of both amino acids.

This was determined to be the case by placing the bacteria in a medium that lacked both histidine and tryptophan and then seeing if they were able to survive, grow, and reproduce.  Which the bacteria did.  Averaging about 5 hours between cell divisions.  However, if they placed some histidine in the growth medium, then the cell division time dropped to 2.6 hours.  If there was tryptophan and no histidine, the cells divided every 2.9 hours.  If both amino acids were present, the cell doubling time dropped to 1.5 hours.

So, the strains that were in the no histidine/no tryptophan growth medium were stressed.  They could survive and grow, but they weren’t good at it (as shown by the increased reproduction time).

In the case of this lab experiment, the end result was that evolution not only produced genes that were good at producing histidine and tryptophan, it also resulted in bacterial species with multiple genes.
The original gene was duplicated.  That’s simply it, there was a mutation whose result was two copies of the same gene. 

Now, things really get interesting.  Most of the time, if you have two genes producing a catalyst, then you get more catalyst.  That happened, but you also have the ability to radically mutate one of the copies of the gene without harming the organism.

And that’s the real benefit to gene duplication events.  Because a mutation that would kill the bacteria could happen in one gene, but the other gene is still there, still functional and the organism lives.  But again, selection takes over and there are many cases of what are called “potentiating mutations”.  These mutations may be neutral or even harmful, but they are required for a future mutation that results in massive increases in functionality.

So, after 3000 generations of bacteria (that’s about two years) what were the results?  Oh this is really good.  You’re gonna love this.

There wasn’t one population with two genes.

There were over 32 unique populations with different types of genes.  Some of them had two genes, one that did histidine production and one that did tryptophan production.  Some of them had a single gene that did both really well.  And there wasn’t just one version of each of the three.  There were over 11 unique alleles for these genes present in the various lineages and populations.

In two years (roughly, that’s an estimate from the 3000 generations and the average generation time), there was  a massive divergence in the bacterial populations.  Some of the versions of the gene had a 20-fold improvement in catalytic activity.

11 new alleles. That's 11 New, Novel variants of the duplicated genes that did not exist before the experiment was run

If that isn't the production of new information by mutational mechanisms, I don't know what is. And it's a change in heritable traits over time.
 
arg-fallbackName="Mr_Wilford"/>
Bernhard.visscher said:
I'm not asking for the process... I am asking for what you consider the greatest change of inherited trait?

I am not asking how it happened, I am asking for the evidence of the animal it happened too

And all have been answered above.
 
arg-fallbackName="Mugnuts"/>
61346593.jpg
 
arg-fallbackName="Mr_Wilford"/>
Bernhard.visscher said:
It's just a simple question.. Which one do you think/ consider is the best display of change of inherited traits?

You answer salmonella.

If you wish to then say that they are all equal whatever.. That's pointless.


Ok salmonella. Do you get a different bacteria or does it stay salmonella?

You've earlier said you wanted an example of something other than HGT adding new information to the genome. Thats what I provided.

You say it's pointless to say they're all equal. Whatever. It's still an example of heritable change passed down to later generations.
 
arg-fallbackName="SpecialFrog"/>
Mugnuts said:
No, it's been pointless since Bernhard started in on his presupposition nonsense. I've still found participation occasionally entertaining but I'm getting bored.
 
arg-fallbackName="Mr_Wilford"/>
Bernhard.visscher said:
Ok take a deep breath remember evolution is science, that assertion cannot be broken by me.

Now I am asking... Is that bacteria still salmonella?

Yes.

But my post was not intended to show speciation events. It was meant to show how new information can be added to the genome by natural processes, which you said is not possible.

That's it.
 
arg-fallbackName="Mr_Wilford"/>
Bernhard.visscher said:
itsdemtitans said:
Are the traits in DNA inherited over generations when this happens? Yes.

Do the traits change as the generations pass? Yes.

So yes, thats a fair summary.

Really, this only brings us back to "How does new DNA come into being?"

Which I have an answer to that does not involve HGT

Maybe it's time to stop with the semantical nonsense and get back to discussing evidence.

SIngle Cell to Human Being fits under the definition of inheritable traits over time. As in, in such a transition, inherited traits would be passed down and change. That's what I agreed with.

That's what I thought you were asking. It's hard to tell what exactly you ask for.

I never, never agreed evolution is defined as "single cell to human"

So you misunderstood me, and I misunderstood you.
 
arg-fallbackName="Mr_Wilford"/>
Bernhard.visscher said:
So can a single cell get to a human being through the process of change in inherited traits over successive generations?

Yes. Inherited traits would be passed down to later generations and they would change over time.

And I'll state again, I'm not saying evolution is defined as "Single Cell to Human." However, such a transition requires traits to be passed on and changed in DNA, so it would fit under the definition of "Change in inherited traits passed on over successive generations."
 
arg-fallbackName="SpecialFrog"/>
Bernhard.visscher said:
So can a single cell get to a human being through the process of change in inherited traits over successive generations?
Do you mean, "are we descended from single-cell organisms"?
 
arg-fallbackName="SpecialFrog"/>
Bernhard, that is like saying that walking is the process of going by foot between Chicago and Detroit.
 
arg-fallbackName="Mr_Wilford"/>
Bernhard.visscher said:
Evolution is defined as " change in inherited traits over successive generations.

You agree a single cell can get to a human being through change in inherited traits over successive generations.

Ergo

You agree a single cell can get to a human being through evolution.

This I agreed with.
Bernhard.visscher said:
Ergo you agree evolution is defined as the process of a single cell becoming a human being.

Why do you take issue with this?

Yeah, no. That argument makes no sense.

Do you not see the gargantuan logical backflip you have to perform to go from:

"Evolution is definded as inherited traits changing over time. If cells, over million of years, could form mutlicellular life such as humans, it would be by the process of inherited traits changing over time"

to

"Therefore evolution is cells turning into humans?"

NO! That sort of logic does not even remotely follow!!

Really, I'm amazed.
 
arg-fallbackName="Mr_Wilford"/>
Bernhard.visscher said:
Right assert no. Whatever dude

Remember evolution is science.

You're always good for laugh Bernhard.

Did your back hurt doing that backflip? Pull any muscles? Cause it was HUGE
 
arg-fallbackName="Mr_Wilford"/>
Bernhard.visscher said:
I said the process of cells ( unicellular organisms) going to humans... Is that process evolution? Yes/no?

Nope, it isn't evolution, it occurs through the process of evolution. Your definition fails because evolution can go so many other ways as well.

By that logic single celled organisms evolving into plants is not evolution

Ergo only one line of descent is evolution.

What you stated could happen through the process of evolution. It could even be an example of evolution. But evolution is not defined as cells going to humans.
 
arg-fallbackName="Mr_Wilford"/>
Bernhard.visscher said:
Yup call it a backflip.. Assert it like you assert evolution is science and you will remain an evolutionist. The one doing the backflips is not me... It's you.

Sure pal. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Motrin, I find, is good for body pains. Should help your back
 
arg-fallbackName="Mr_Wilford"/>
Bernhard.visscher said:
Never mind. Seriously. Unicellular organisms going to humans does not deny unicellular organisms going to plants. It is simply taking one line of evolution to understand the definition provided. But if you think that have a ball... Remain evolutionist whatever.

Good talk, Bernhard.
 
arg-fallbackName="Mr_Wilford"/>
itsdemtitans said:
Bernhard.visscher said:
I said the process of cells ( unicellular organisms) going to humans... Is that process evolution? Yes/no?

Nope, it isn't evolution, it occurs through the process of evolution. Your definition fails because evolution can go so many other ways as well.

By that logic single celled organisms evolving into plants is not evolution

Ergo only one line of descent is evolution.

What you stated could happen through the process of evolution. It could even be an example of evolution. But evolution is not defined as cells going to humans.

Just so you know why you're wrong and your definition does not work

Deny Bernie, Deny!
 
arg-fallbackName="Mr_Wilford"/>
Bernhard.visscher said:
Idt.....Evolution... Defined as change inheritable traits over successive generations.

A single cell can become a human being through change in inheritable traits?

Idt.... Yes that's a fair summary.


So through the process of evolution a cell can become a human?

Idt .... What about plants?


Seriously you can't make this stuff up.

Through the processes of evolution cells could evolve into humans

But you tried to define evolution as
Bernhard.visscher said:
Ergo you agree evolution is defined as the process of a single cell becoming a human being.

You're always good for a laugh! :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
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