Inferno

[Inferno]

You dont believe that God exists, so we can both agree that He is not the cause of all evil. I believe that God exists and that evil exists because we choose to do things that are evil.

That wasn't the question though, was it?
I addressed the following question: "What would change (morally) if a God does exist?"
And I think I addressed that fairly well. Pantheistic/deistic/polytheistic/etc. Gods... Doesn't matter, all cool. A monotheistic God? That's where the problems start.

I don't think there is any argument at all to be made for "God and free will", but that's a different topic. If you assume a God, in this case the God of the Bible, I don't think there's an argument to be made that this is all our fault.
Your opening statement was that the God of the Bible does some horrible things in the Bible, and I agree. (That there are these passages in the Bible and that they're horrible.) But can you call that being a God? Is that being worthy of praise? Is that being likely to exist? Those are the questions I've tried to answer and my answer is universally "No". Will you answer them differently? That, I think, is the point of this thread.

It might interest you to know that TGotB is not "all knowing" in the sense that many atheists and even many christians believe. In the OT he says that he did know that men would do such evil things like sacrificing their own childeren to Molech, for example. I also dont believe that He knew what names Adam would give to all of the animals. It could be that you will see this as another reason to remain atheist.

There are indeed different accounts in the Bible. In some parts, it specifically states that God is all-knowing in the sense that It knows everything that has happened and everything that is going to happen. Yet in other parts, Jesus talks of a place God did not yet know about thoughts God had no idea of...
It could be that THIS is yet another reason I remain atheist: There is no evidence that a God exists and every evidence we have (conflicting Bible accounts, immorality commanded by the Bible, etc.) is evidence to the contrary.

Again, what do you think? How do you reconcile the two opposing views that God is all-loving and kills babies?

What are your views on your God's omnipotence and omnibenevolence?

Im sorry, Noth. Im really not sure. Maybe if you could ask it in a different way..

I think the question is rather simple: Is your God all-powerful? Is your God all-loving?

Also, could you try to make a point with this thread? What is it you're trying to show/ask/discuss/etc.? I still don't have a concrete idea of what you're trying to achieve.

EDIT:
While we're at it, Metalgod, what do you make of these?





There are a total of three videos to this series. The series is not yet finished, if I'm correctly informed.

 

[Noth]

Additionally, while I wouldn't want to get too caught up in syllogisms, I am also curious to know that should you indeed think that God is all-powerful - so in the most straightforward definition of that: he(pardon the gender assumption) can do anything at all - do you think he would consider making himself all-knowing in the way that you think he is not? And if not, why not?

So more shortly, if God is all-powerful, would he opt to make himself all-knowing as well?
For the moment let's ignore the inherent impossibility of all-knowingness, that is that one can never know if one is truly all-knowing.

 

[Metalgod]

You dont believe that God exists, so we can both agree that He is not the cause of all evil. I believe that God exists and that evil exists because we choose to do things that are evil.

That wasn't the question though, was it?
I addressed the following question: "What would change (morally) if a God does exist?"
And I think I addressed that fairly well. Pantheistic/deistic/polytheistic/etc. Gods... Doesn't matter, all cool. A monotheistic God? That's where the problems start.

You addressed every question totally well. Thank you.

It might interest you to know that TGotB is not "all knowing" in the sense that many atheists and even many christians believe. In the OT he says that he did know that men would do such evil things like sacrificing their own childeren to Molech, for example. I also dont believe that He knew what names Adam would give to all of the animals. It could be that you will see this as another reason to remain atheist.

There are indeed different accounts in the Bible. In some parts, it specifically states that God is all-knowing in the sense that It knows everything that has happened and everything that is going to happen.

Are you sure about that? I wish I knew where it states this.

It could be that THIS is yet another reason I remain atheist: There is no evidence that a God exists and every evidence we have (conflicting Bible accounts, immorality commanded by the Bible, etc.) is evidence to the contrary.

Again, what do you think? How do you reconcile the two opposing views that God is all-loving and kills babies?

To me, death is not evidence of an immoral god.

What are your views on your God's omnipotence and omnibenevolence?

Im sorry, Noth. Im really not sure. Maybe if you could ask it in a different way..

I think the question is rather simple: Is your God all-powerful? Is your God all-loving?

I dont know how to answer that, Inferno. How can we know whether or not something is all-powerful or all loving?

EDIT:
While we're at it, Metalgod, what do you make of these?





There are a total of three videos to this series. The series is not yet finished, if I'm correctly informed.

I'll let you know what I think after I watch them. Thank you.

 

[Metalgod]

Additionally, while I wouldn't want to get too caught up in syllogisms, I am also curious to know that should you indeed think that God is all-powerful - so in the most straightforward definition of that: he(pardon the gender assumption) can do anything at all - do you think he would consider making himself all-knowing in the way that you think he is not? And if not, why not?

So more shortly, if God is all-powerful, would he opt to make himself all-knowing as well?
For the moment let's ignore the inherent impossibility of all-knowingness, that is that one can never know if one is truly all-knowing.

Ok. I guess my answer to that would be No. Why? Because there are things that I would rather not know. The ending of a book before I've finished reading it, for example.

 

[Noth]

I think the question is rather simple: Is your God all-powerful? Is your God all-loving?

I dont know how to answer that, Inferno. How can we know whether or not something is all-powerful or all loving?

OK, I must admit I'm not really satisfied with that answer, personally. Here's why:
You stated that God was not all-knowing, and used the Bible to back up your contention why this is so.

Why do you not apply the same method to omnipotence (all-powerfulness) and omnibenevolence (all-lovingness) - that is to say, check the Bible to see whether it tells you whether God is or isn't omnipotent/ omnibenevolent - as you do to omniscience (all-knowingness)?

Of course, as I think you'll be aware, we won't accept the Bible as proof in and of itself for anything like this, but at least you'd apply the same reasoning across the board, if that makes sense .

If you wish to know where you can find passages that allude to God's omniscience, omnipotence and omnibelevolence, simple type any of them into google with 'Bible verse' added and you'll find relevant passages. This is assuming that you're not just answering a question with a question to duck the question to begin with .

*Edited so I do not have to double post:

Ok. I guess my answer to that would be No. Why? Because there are things that I would rather not know. The ending of a book before I've finished reading it, for example.

All right. I completely agree with you on books and the like. I would also, personally, choose to remain ignorant of some things. But then, in keeping the Christian mindview for the moment, you and I are not God. Is it fair to apply this line of reasoning to a deity, who, assuming all-powerfulness, could make himself all-knowing and in doing so know enough to end suffering (assuming he cares, naturally)? Heck, he might even turn off his all-knowingness afterwards, seeing as how that is withing the bounds of all-powerfulness .

 

[Inferno]

Are you sure about that? I wish I knew where it states this.

It seems that either you haven't read your Bible properly or you cherry-pick it.

Job 37:16[/url]"]Do you know about the balancing of the clouds,
that wondrous activity of him who is perfect in knowledge?

Psalms 147:5[/url]"]Our Lord is great and has awesome power;
there is no limit to his wisdom.

There are more to be found here, here and (from the awful theopedia) here.

Additionally, this topic puts a few things into perspective, even though it's not directly related.

To me, death is not evidence of an immoral god.

Death as such? No.
But God killing people? Babies even? God advocating slavery, misogyny, rape, torture, child sacrifice and many other things? How is that not immoral?
Let me rephrase that: If I would be found doing any of the things your God supposedly did, would you say I am a moral person or not?

I'll have to find the paper, but this experiment was done.
Children were read a short text where God killed a lot of people and they were then asked if that behaviour was morally justified. A large percentage said "yes".
Children were then read a short text where "God" was replaced with "a General". Nothing else was changed. The kids overwhelmingly said that this was not morally justified.

I see you doing the same thing. Why do you judge God by a different standard than everyone else?

I dont know how to answer that, Inferno. How can we know whether or not something is all-powerful or all loving?

Good answer. In that case, answer me this: Why do you believe in a God in the first place? Is there any evidence for your God?

 

[Metalgod]

OK, I must admit I'm not really satisfied with that answer, personally. Here's why:
You stated that God was not all-knowing, and used the Bible to back up your contention why this is so.

Why do you not apply the same method to omnipotence (all-powerfulness) and omnibenevolence (all-lovingness) - that is to say, check the Bible to see whether it tells you whether God is or isn't omnipotent/ omnibenevolent - as you do to omniscience (all-knowingness)?
Of course, as I think you'll be aware, we won't accept the Bible as proof in and of itself for anything like this, but at least you'd apply the same reasoning across the board, if that makes sense .

Ok, sure. TGotB must be all-powerfull, after all the bible says he created the universe, no?

As for as Him all-lovingness, I dont believe TGotB loves a child abuser while he rapes a 5 year old girl, for instance. I think all-lovingness and omnibenevolence are just words we use to try to accurately describe what we cant fully comprehend. Things that go beyond our limits of understanding.

All right. I completely agree with you on books and the like. I would also, personally, choose to remain ignorant of some things. But then, in keeping the Christian mindview for the moment, you and I are not God. Is it fair to apply this line of reasoning to a deity, who, assuming all-powerfulness, could make himself all-knowing and in doing so know enough to end suffering (assuming he cares, naturally)? Heck, he might even turn off his all-knowingness afterwards, seeing as how that is withing the bounds of all-powerfulness .

Thats a good point.
And we suffer a lot. Terrible diseases, war, animal attacks, earthquakes, emotional pain. If you're lucky, you were at least born in a country where you can find a lousy job that you'll have to get up at 4 in the morning and goto 5 or 6 or 7 days a week until you die.

But for now I think that without suffering, none of us would be able to really show our love for another.

 

[Metalgod]

Are you sure about that? I wish I knew where it states this.

It seems that either you haven't read your Bible properly or you cherry-pick it.

Job 37:16[/url]"]Do you know about the balancing of the clouds,
that wondrous activity of him who is perfect in knowledge?

Psalms 147:5[/url]"]Our Lord is great and has awesome power;
there is no limit to his wisdom.

There are more to be found here, here and (from the awful theopedia) here.

Knowing everything about the present is different from knowing everything about the future. Heres one of the verses I was talking about earlier. TGotB says in Jeremiah 32:35
"They have built altars to Baal in Hinnom Valley, to sacrifice their sons and daughters to the god Molech. I did not command them to do this, and it did not even enter my mind that they would do such a thing and make the people of Judah sin"

God even seems at times to not even have total knowledge about the present. Especially in Genesis. He's asks questions like Where are you? What are you doing? Where's your brother? ect. Questions that we often ask our own childeren.

Death as such? No.
But God killing people? Babies even? God advocating slavery, misogyny, rape, torture, child sacrifice and many other things? How is that not immoral?

Well, there were slaves in the Bible. Women remaining silent in church ect.

By rape I assume it has something to do with God telling the Isrealites that after a certain war they should take the women of their enemies or something like that. You see capital or corporal punishment as torture and by child sacrifice you're talking about God commanding Abraham to offer his son Isaac as a, well..child sacrifice. No?

Let me rephrase that: If I would be found doing any of the things your God supposedly did, would you say I am a moral person or not?

Yes TGotB killed people in the bible, even babies. No one escapes death.
I would not call you an immoral person for killing someone in self-defense
I would call an immoral person for walking into a daycare with a shot gun, killing babies and small children and yelling, "I'M JUST DOING WHAT GOD DID IN THE BIBLE!!!!"

I'll have to find the paper, but this experiment was done.
Children were read a short text where God killed a lot of people and they were then asked if that behaviour was morally justified. A large percentage said "yes".
Children were then read a short text where "God" was replaced with "a General". Nothing else was changed. The kids overwhelmingly said that this was not morally justified.

I see you doing the same thing. Why do you judge God by a different standard than everyone else?

I believe you.

As for your question. It's likely I've often made incorrect judgements about people. Who I am to judge God?

answer me this: Why do you believe in a God in the first place? Is there any evidence for your God?

Doesnt everyone believe in God?

 

[Darkprophet232]

Doesnt everyone believe in God?

No, no, no, no,no,no,no,no, and no!

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

Doesnt everyone believe in God?

 

[australopithecus]

Doesnt everyone believe in God?

 

[forgotten observer]

answer me this: Why do you believe in a God in the first place? Is there any evidence for your God?

Doesnt everyone believe in God?

 

[Metalgod]

answer me this: Why do you believe in a God in the first place? Is there any evidence for your God?

I've always believed in God, never had a reason not to.

The potential greatness of us as individuals and humanity as a whole (present and future) is evidence of not only God, but also of the fact that we are His childeren.

 

[australopithecus]

I've always believed in God, never had a reason not to.

No evidence is a reason.

The potential greatness of us as individuals and humanity as a whole (present and future) is evidence of not only God, but also of the fact that we are His childeren.

Non-sequitur.

 

[Metalgod]

Inferno,

Btw. I finished watching the videos you brought to my attention earlier. One of them was so horrible that I didnt even make it past the first 2 minutes. I thought the 3rd one was the best, although I dont believe the whole "Our morals come from science" bit.

I also dont believe that one must first believe in God before they can have any valid ideas concerning morality.

 

[Noth]

Ok, sure. TGotB must be all-powerfull, after all the bible says he created the universe, no?

As for as Him all-lovingness, I dont believe TGotB loves a child abuser while he rapes a 5 year old girl, for instance. I think all-lovingness and omnibenevolence are just words we use to try to accurately describe what we cant fully comprehend. Things that go beyond our limits of understanding.

- Emphasis mine.
Right. So we're agreed on the fact that God, should He exist, does not love everyone and everything, at least not equally so.

What I take issue with here is not that there might be things I, or any human, could not wrap my brains around. It is the follow-up logic that suggests we should not try to understand because there is an alleged explanation available to a God that we cannot fully understand. If you pardon me, I feel this is intellectually lazy. And I say lazy because I think people, especially Christians on issues like this, should be more hungry for knowledge and more hungry for truth - or the closest to truth you can achieve.

Do you not feel it is simply too easy to say that we cannot comprehend something? To me, and to many others like me, this statement comes across as a way not to have to answer, not to have to atone for, the actions of the Christian God that, at face value at least, truly appear atrocious.

I am not saying, mind you, that I feel that Christians should apologise for the moral atrocities commited that were directly ordained by God*. Being a non-believer I do not think there is a god that did anything at all; it has always been and will always be, according to me, the actions of men. Yet it is the fact that, as Inferno pointed out, when actions are (as the Bible tells us) committed/ ordained by that God, believers tend to excuse His actions by not holding these actions up to human moral standards. They suggest that God should not be judged by what we know to be right and wrong or they simply say, as you now did, that we cannot understand them. I really do not feel that is sufficient.

Thats a good point.
And we suffer a lot. Terrible diseases, war, animal attacks, earthquakes, emotional pain. If you're lucky, you were at least born in a country where you can find a lousy job that you'll have to get up at 4 in the morning and goto 5 or 6 or 7 days a week until you die.

But for now I think that without suffering, none of us would be able to really show our love for another.

Why do you think this? And do you think this is why your God allows suffering in this world?

It seems to be that this is arguing with a sample size of one. There has never been, nor will there likely ever be, a society where there is no suffering. There are places in the world where people have it 'better' than others in many respects, but even here there will be misfortune and pain. There are people that do not feel that love, or have no one to share even platonic love with, let alone romantic love. So there is nothing to compare this world with. As such how would we know whether we could not show our love to one another in this Utopian idea of a world? We have never had the chance to try. Even in the Christian mindview, Adam and Eve in paradise don't suffice as a comparison as they are inherently flawed and we cannot properly determine if or how they loved.

That said, I do think there is merit to the idea that the knowledge of suffering allows us to appreciate the love we feel and receive better. I do not, however, think this would be sufficient reason to let God off the hook, should He exist. The amount of suffering is simply too disproportionately large and too unevenly distributed to serve as a moral groundwork for God to stand on and be excused where he could have prevented or eased said suffering. Does that make sense?

*edit: re-reading this, I do think large institutions like the Catholic church should do some more apologising for the atrocities that were ordered or allowed to happen by them throughout their existence. I am speaking here of individual guilt.

 

[Master_Ghost_Knight]

Try using the argument "I move in mysterious ways" in court and see how far will you get.

 

[Inferno]

Knowing everything about the present is different from knowing everything about the future. Heres one of the verses I was talking about earlier. TGotB says in Jeremiah 32:35
"They have built altars to Baal in Hinnom Valley, to sacrifice their sons and daughters to the god Molech. I did not command them to do this, and it did not even enter my mind that they would do such a thing and make the people of Judah sin"

God even seems at times to not even have total knowledge about the present. Especially in Genesis. He's asks questions like Where are you? What are you doing? Where's your brother? ect. Questions that we often ask our own childeren.

Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.

ALTERNATE VERSION

Before a word is on my tongue
you, Lord, know it completely.

If I read that correctly, that's premonition.
But like I said, there are contradictory parts in the Bible. Sometimes, God knows everything in advance and everything about the presence, then God does not know places that other people do know.
The Bible is self-contradictory. What do you make of that?

Well, there were slaves in the Bible. Women remaining silent in church ect.

By rape I assume it has something to do with God telling the Isrealites that after a certain war they should take the women of their enemies or something like that. By torture you're talking about capital or corporal punishment and by child sacrifice you're talking about God commanding Abraham to offer his son Isaac as a, well..child sacrifice. No?

More or less. A rather more complete list can be found here:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

So again: How is that not immoral? Isn't that proof enough of an immoral God? If not, why?

Yes TGotB killed people in the bible, even babies. No one escapes death.
I would not call you an immoral person for killing someone in self-defense
I would call an immoral person for walking into a daycare with a shot gun, killing babies and small children and yelling, "I'M JUST DOING WHAT GOD DID IN THE BIBLE!!!!"

Did God have to kill those people, those babies? Was that self-defence? I would hardly think so!

As for your question. It's likely I've often made incorrect judgements about people. Who I am to judge God?

Tell me a single instance where the murder of an innocent, healthy baby born into a loving, caring family is a good thing and I will grant you your answer.
Failing to do that, God has failed the easiest moral hurdle. How can you revere such a being, how can you believe in it?

Doesnt everyone believe in God?

Quite evidently not. I grew up believing in a God, but I grew out of it when I reached the age of reason... so at about twelve.

I've always believed in God, never had a reason not to.

The potential greatness of us as individuals and humanity as a whole (present and future) is evidence of not only God, but also of the fact that we are His childeren.

There's a Dragon in my garage. I've always believed in it and I've never had a reason not to.
The potential greatness of this thought is evidence not only of said Dragon, but also that we are Knights.

Btw. I finished watching the videos you brought to my attention earlier. One of them was so horrible that I didnt even make it past the first 2 minutes. I thought the 3rd one was the best, although I dont believe the whole "Our morals come from science" bit.

Then where do morals come from?

I also dont believe that one must first believe in God before they can have any valid ideas concerning morality.

Agreed, I never suggested that. In fact I obviously believe the contrary: That it's hard to have valid ideas concerning morality if you do believe in a God.

 

[Metalgod]

Inferno,

It might take me up to 2 or 3 days to answer everything you brought up in your last post. Afterwards, I will answer Noth.

I thank both of you very much for your time.

 

[Metalgod]

Knowing everything about the present is different from knowing everything about the future. Heres one of the verses I was talking about earlier. TGotB says in Jeremiah 32:35
"They have built altars to Baal in Hinnom Valley, to sacrifice their sons and daughters to the god Molech. I did not command them to do this, and it did not even enter my mind that they would do such a thing and make the people of Judah sin"

God even seems at times to not even have total knowledge about the present. Especially in Genesis. He's asks questions like Where are you? What are you doing? Where's your brother? ect. Questions that we often ask our own childeren.

Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.

ALTERNATE VERSION

Before a word is on my tongue
you, Lord, know it completely.

If I read that correctly, that's premonition.
But like I said, there are contradictory parts in the Bible. Sometimes, God knows everything in advance and everything about the presence, then God does not know places that other people do know.
The Bible is self-contradictory. What do you make of that?

From the evidence we have both given so far, we can say that TGotB knows some things about the future. What I asking is, is there anywhere in the bible where God says he knows everything about the future.

More or less. A rather more complete list can be found here:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

So again: How is that not immoral? Isn't that proof enough of an immoral God? If not, why?


Did God have to kill those people, those babies? Was that self-defence? I would hardly think so!?

Tell me a single instance where the murder of an innocent, healthy baby born into a loving, caring family is a good thing and I will grant you your answer.
Failing to do that, God has failed the easiest moral hurdle. How can you revere such a being, how can you believe in it?

Knowing that, in the bible, TgotB created life, you must also know that He has the authority to take it away. If that was all we knew about TgotB, then we would have to say Hes pretty morally neutral.

In the Bible, God also suffers because of us and for us, dies for all of our sins and communicates a way to eternal life in paradise.

where do morals come from?

I dont know right now. Thank you, Inferno.

Also, I would like to spend a few days in Austria next week just as a tourist. I hate driving. Will I need a car?