Homosexuality...

[fenyx]

Im gay.

any questions?

Are you male, female, tree, or pinecone?

New Mexico Whiptail Lizard.

 

[fenyx]

[
I think this is what you were going for:

I'm somewhere near the back-lower-right myself - although I may be gay for Johnny Depp

that looks about right. thanks.


interesting discussion.

 

[Ibis3]

Now for some reason genitals are consistently vulgar in all societies and so for a more apt example I point you to one of my favorite words:
Niggardly - 1. reluctant to give or spend; stingy; miserly.
2. meanly or ungenerously small or scanty: a niggardly tip to a waiter.

Now we might ask ourselves, does this word have some utility beyond its lowly origins?
The answer would have to be 'yes.' The meaning conveyed is precise - if not without close synonyms. It is even be possible (if perhaps, uncommon) to use it without harboring racist sentiments one-self.

However, will this word ever outgrow the bigotry that spawned it?
No. Not a chance. Not ever.

I'm following the conversation but am staying out of it because I've wasted enough of my time trying to convince someone of their wrong-headedness. Kudos to you for continuing the fight, but....

This is a very, very bad example. Why? Because the word 'niggardly' has no origins in bigotry. It's from a Germanic root (cf. Old Eng. & Norse) and always meant stingy with the sense of exactness/closeness. Let's not perpetuate ignorance by throwing it out of the language.

ETA: No need to get rid of 'picnic' either, another word that's picked up a false etymology.

 

[Ibis3]

Niggardly, combined with Negro combined with the inferior elocution of the american south is what gave rise to the word nigger. Negro was the word used to describe "someone who came from africa, i.e. a black guy" and niggardly was someone cheap and filthy. Memetically strong combination there to be sure, not difficult to see how it could have caught on in popular usage.

I'm staying out of the main conversation, as I said before. But I have to correct you on the facts here. This is just wrong. Niggardly is a completely unrelated word that's been in the language for hundreds of years and is related to words in Old English and Norse. There is no negative connotation beyond its own limitations (i.e. someone who's not quite as generous or liberal with their money as is socially appropriate--I have no idea where you got the sense of 'filthy' from).

Nigger is (via Latin languages) from the Latin meaning 'black'. In the original, it had no negative connotations, but it came into English as a pejorative, used only in the context of describing the objects of slavery and racism. In other words, it began its life as an English word as a pejorative synonym for a member of the slave class--and probably through the slave trade, not coined in the American south.

 

[Anachronous Rex]

Now for some reason genitals are consistently vulgar in all societies and so for a more apt example I point you to one of my favorite words:
Niggardly - 1. reluctant to give or spend; stingy; miserly.
2. meanly or ungenerously small or scanty: a niggardly tip to a waiter.

Now we might ask ourselves, does this word have some utility beyond its lowly origins?
The answer would have to be 'yes.' The meaning conveyed is precise - if not without close synonyms. It is even be possible (if perhaps, uncommon) to use it without harboring racist sentiments one-self.

However, will this word ever outgrow the bigotry that spawned it?
No. Not a chance. Not ever.

I'm following the conversation but am staying out of it because I've wasted enough of my time trying to convince someone of their wrong-headedness. Kudos to you for continuing the fight, but....

This is a very, very bad example. Why? Because the word 'niggardly' has no origins in bigotry. It's from a Germanic root (cf. Old Eng. & Norse) and always meant stingy with the sense of exactness/closeness. Let's not perpetuate ignorance by throwing it out of the language.

ETA: No need to get rid of 'picnic' either, another word that's picked up a false etymology.

Upon checking, you're right... my mistake.

Actually though, upon thinking about it, I now think the word an even more analogous. Gay once held another meaning as well.

I should clarify that I am not in favor of wantonly erasing useful words from vocabulary. In fact, I count myself a firm opponent of this. However, we must concede that 'niggardly' is irrevocably damaged by racist connotation, I think it best to cut it loose under the circumstances. The same applies to the derogatory 'gay.'

New Mexico Whiptail Lizard.

You are my new favorite person... err... squamate.

Recent studies have shown this ....

The more brothers a guy has .... the more likely the change this guy is gay.

^^ READ THAT AGAIN ... This has been proven by scientific research.

Read it how you can:

- The more brothers you have ... the more likely you are gay. It is now a scientific proven fact !!

It doesnt say ... if you have 8 brothers ... you are gay ... it says ... if you have alot of older brothers, ... the change you are gay is more likely (the changes of it go up more, with each brother you have).

You can not deny science.

What?

You do not like the outcome of this scientific research and will thus simply just suddenly nullify it?

You have always believed in science .. but now ... suddenly , ...do not, ... as it effect your personal believes on gayness ???

IT IS FACT.

Live with it !!!

------

Now noting this fact ... a whole different discussion might evolve. Why does gayness exist?

While it is generally not a good idea for people in glass houses to throw too many stones... may I see these studies?

 

[Light]

You have always believed in science .. but now ... suddenly , ...do not, ... as it effect your personal believes on gayness ???

Are you a comic book villain?

I expect a post where you promise a quick end to our now confused and broken existences.

 

[Ibis3]

Actually though, upon thinking about it, I now think the word an even more analogous. Gay once held another meaning as well.

I should clarify that I am not in favor of wantonly erasing useful words from vocabulary. In fact, I count myself a firm opponent of this. However, we must concede that 'niggardly' is irrevocably damaged by racist connotation, I think it best to cut it loose under the circumstances. The same applies to the derogatory 'gay.'

Sorry, I disagree. It is only "irrevocably damaged by racist connotation" by those who are ignorant. It has no connection with racism at all. Never has. The job here is to educate and correct the usage. This is no different than people making up words like "irregardless" or thinking "inflammable" means "impervious to flame". This is not the same situation as "gay" which started out meaning one thing and by association of meaning came to be used in a derogatory way. This is just a word that happens by coincidence to include a sound similar to another, unacceptable word. It would be like saying we shouldn't use the word "game" to mean manipulation by deceit because it sounds too much like "gay".

The only similar instance (ETA: to the etymological journey of the word 'gay') I can think of off the top of my head is "pussy". It went from a term of endearment towards cats and rabbits to one toward women which somewhere along the way got linked to a synonym for female genitalia, which is now both a derogatory term to describe an effeminate, weak man or a sexually objectified woman. If you want to use it to describe your cat, or as an affectionate term during sex play, fine. But don't use it as an insult because in that context it's misogynist no matter the person to whom you're referring or why.

While it is generally not a good idea for people in glass houses to throw too many stones... may I see these studies?

Here are a couple to start you off:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/00121649
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11534970

 

[Anachronous Rex]

Actually though, upon thinking about it, I now think the word an even more analogous. Gay once held another meaning as well.

I should clarify that I am not in favor of wantonly erasing useful words from vocabulary. In fact, I count myself a firm opponent of this. However, we must concede that 'niggardly' is irrevocably damaged by racist connotation, I think it best to cut it loose under the circumstances. The same applies to the derogatory 'gay.'

Sorry, I disagree. It is only "irrevocably damaged by racist connotation" by those who are ignorant. It has no connection with racism at all. Never has. The job here is to educate and correct the usage. This is no different than people making up words like "irregardless" or thinking "inflammable" means "impervious to flame". This is not the same situation as "gay" which started out meaning one thing and by association of meaning came to be used in a derogatory way. This is just a word that happens by coincidence to include a sound similar to another, unacceptable word. It would be like saying we shouldn't use the word "game" to mean manipulation by deceit because it sounds too much like "gay".

The only similar instance I can think of off the top of my head is "pussy". It went from a term of endearment towards cats and rabbits to one toward women which somewhere along the way got linked to a synonym for female genitalia, which is now both a derogatory term to describe an effeminate, weak man or a sexually objectified woman. If you want to use it to describe your cat, or as an affectionate term during sex play, fine. But don't use it as an insult because in that context it's misogynist no matter the person to whom you're referring or why.

That's fair. But if you have to explain that every time you use the word then you must admit it has lost some utility. It's not that I want 'niggardly' to be thought of as racist, like I said, I actually like the word. While similar in flavor it can be contrasted with stingy or miserly as being associated with poverty and class rather then wealth and greed; 'cheep' comes close, but sounds so... plebeian.

To be honest, the question of when it is appropriate to abandon a word that is so badly misunderstood is one I struggle with frequently. I still make the effort to call myself either an ignostic or an atheist when questioned, but I can foresee the day when I'll just say 'agnostic' to avoid the hassle. It's a shame really.

While it is generally not a good idea for people in glass houses to throw too many stones... may I see these studies?

Here are a couple to start you off:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/00121649
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11534970

Oh thank you, but I was referring to whatever specific study (or studies) Ad Initium was referencing. His enthusiasm, confidence (especially in a field as poorly understood as the development of human sexuality), adversarial tone, and use of capital letters concern me...

 

[thefay]

What about people who choose not to have kids? Or gay men (and women) who DO have biological children, either through sperm donation, surrogate pregnancy, and other similar methods. I don't think any of that matters though, because I don't think its important for everyone to have children. That would be ridiculous. Fuck, look at how overpopulated the world actually is?

 

[simonecuttlefish]

Every turkey baster in the world is laughing at this topic.

 

[DepricatedZero]

I'm following the conversation but am staying out of it because I've wasted enough of my time trying to convince someone of their wrong-headedness. Kudos to you for continuing the fight, but....

This is a very, very bad example. Why? Because the word 'niggardly' has no origins in bigotry. It's from a Germanic root (cf. Old Eng. & Norse) and always meant stingy with the sense of exactness/closeness. Let's not perpetuate ignorance by throwing it out of the language.

ETA: No need to get rid of 'picnic' either, another word that's picked up a false etymology.

This.

I did a little dance for you.

And what's the false etymology you have for picnic? Haven't heard this one yet.

 

[Ibis3]

I'm following the conversation but am staying out of it because I've wasted enough of my time trying to convince someone of their wrong-headedness. Kudos to you for continuing the fight, but....

This is a very, very bad example. Why? Because the word 'niggardly' has no origins in bigotry. It's from a Germanic root (cf. Old Eng. & Norse) and always meant stingy with the sense of exactness/closeness. Let's not perpetuate ignorance by throwing it out of the language.

ETA: No need to get rid of 'picnic' either, another word that's picked up a false etymology.

This.

I did a little dance for you.

Thanks.

And what's the false etymology you have for picnic? Haven't heard this one yet.

Snopes sums it up better than I can: http://www.snopes.com/language/offense/picnic.asp

 

[borrofburi]

What about people who choose not to have kids? Or gay men (and women) who DO have biological children, either through sperm donation, surrogate pregnancy, and other similar methods. I don't think any of that matters though, because I don't think its important for everyone to have children. That would be ridiculous. Fuck, look at how overpopulated the world actually is?

To be fair to this thread, the idea of overpopulation meaning homosexuality is downright good for the species was brought up before: http://forums.leagueofreason.org.uk/viewtopic.php?p=68499#p68499
(also the ideas of infertile people and couples who choose not to have children have been brought up multiple times as well).

I think the OP has reconsidered some of his ideas, even if he hasn't changed or publicly declared change.

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

Although I haven't trawled through this whole thread, I think it's fair to say that there are a number of causes for homosexuality - it's simply not possible to say that there's any one cause for it.

DepricatedZero beat me to it - kudos to Ibis, for clarifying a number of misconceptions over the etymology of words!

For myself, I don't like the "modern" usage of the terms "gay" and "straight" - these still have their original meaning for me.

As the old saying goes, "Whatever it is, the Greeks have a word for it".

I always use "homosexual" and "heterosexual", respectively, for sexual orientation - or "bisexual", if appropriate.

It gets away from the dangers of "euphemisms" - if you call someone "straight", does that mean those who are "not straight" are "bent/twisted/warped"?

If a woman says she's "Lesbian", I tend to say "Only if you're a inhabitant of the island of Lesbos - otherwise, you mean that you're homosexual".

I know, I'm a "Grammar Nazi"!!

Kindest regards,

James

 

[Light]

I know, I'm a "Grammar Nazi"!!

Just stay out of Grammar Poland.

 

[masterjedijared]

Grammar France, however, has already capitulated.

 

[pdka2004]

In the book, Homosexuality, Birth Order, and Evolution: Toward an Equilibrium Reproductive Economics of Homosexuality, Edward M. Miller suggests that the birth order effect on homosexuality may be a by-product of an evolved, biological mechanism that shifts personality away from heterosexuality in laterborn sons. This would have the consequence of reducing the probability of these sons engaging in unproductive competition with each other.

Does this mean we can all look forward to an episode of 18 kids and counting when one of the Duggar kids comes out of the closet?

Given their particular brand of religious dogmatism it may finally put to rest that old "Homosexuality as choice" argument

We may have to come up with a new meaning for the expression "Quiver Full Movement"

Off the top of my head "The relaxing of the anus just prior to penetration"

 

[RichardMNixon]

Compare niggardly to "gyp," which may have racist roots that I doubt many people would realize. I definitely didn't know it.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5483053/Judge-accused-of-using-racial-slur-against-gypsies.html

 

[Story]

Reasons for homosexuality to me are completely psychological, but to arrive at this conclusion I have to first ask you all one question.

Think about the person you love, or the person you have a sexual attraction to and follow these thoughts. This is just an exercise.

This person blind folds you and starts touching your unmentionables with the utmost passion and lust, then began to undress you and feel your bare skin in all your favorite places, then lays you down on a comfortable bed and mounts you when suddenly your blind fold falls off and you realise that it's not the person you love, but someone of the same gender. A man, in my case.

You'll have to ask yourself, were you sexually excited by the idea of that person touching you or by that actual person doing it?

The former would mean that sexuality is purely psychological, which I'm sure you'll all agree it is.

I would go as far as to argue that it could even be memetic, but that heterosexual or bisexual memes are the most likely to survive from an evolutionary stand point.

 

[fenyx]

Reasons for homosexuality to me are completely psychological, but to arrive at this conclusion I have to first ask you all one question.

Think about the person you love, or the person you have a sexual attraction to and follow these thoughts. This is just an exercise.

This person blind folds you and starts touching your unmentionables with the utmost passion and lust, then began to undress you and feel your bare skin in all your favorite places, then lays you down on a comfortable bed and mounts you when suddenly your blind fold falls off and you realise that it's not the person you love, but someone of the same gender. A man, in my case.

You'll have to ask yourself, were you sexually excited by the idea of that person touching you or by that actual person doing it?

The former would mean that sexuality is purely psychological, which I'm sure you'll all agree it is.

I would go as far as to argue that it could even be memetic, but that heterosexual or bisexual memes are the most likely to survive from an evolutionary stand point.

actually...i dont agree. there are significant differences in the physical affections of a man and those of a woman...blindfolded...id still know...size, weight, body shape, smell, type of movement..but most particularly smell...mansmell makes me feel nauseated (sorry guys).