Here's a question...

[Memeticemetic]

I am married with two "children" and three grand-children.

I obviously didn't bother to read his entire rant to find the most stupid thing he wrote, but... seriously... can anyone think of a reason why he put children in quotes?

 

[ProcInc]

You can get a quicker idea of exactly how clueless he is here

 

[Memeticemetic]

You can get a quicker idea of exactly how clueless he is here

Damn. He wasn't even stupid in a funny way. Pretty boiler plate fail-sauce right there.

 

[Memeticemetic]

I am married with two "children" and three grand-children.

I obviously didn't bother to read his entire rant to find the most stupid thing he wrote, but... seriously... can anyone think of a reason why he put children in quotes?

Speaking of stupid... obviously he put children in quotes because they are now adults with children of their own. :facepalm:

 

[Caractacus]

Sure, as long as he never talked about it. Ever. And his other features were so *~*~fabulous~*~* that it redeemed him of that one little failure.

See, there's the rub. Could you date someone who never talked about deeply held beliefs? That would be a deal breaker for me in and of itself. Very fabulous 'fabulous' by the way.

Well... um... yeah. Good point.

*crawls back into cave*

 

[borrofburi]

EDIT: I wrote this presuming YEC


No. If she was really great and a creationist, then we would be friends/acquaintances until she was not a creationist, and then maybe we could grow closer. If she's currently a creationist it means that either she believes things despite strong and convincing evidence to the contrary or that she's lived an insular life and has no knowledge of evolution (and never thought to question creaitonism). In the former case I want very little to do with her, and in the latter case it depends entirely too much on how she handles the new information and the challenge to her beliefs (if she handles it very intelligently, rationally, and kindly then there's potential, otherwise definitely not).

The fact is, it is extremely likely we wouldn't get along. I have creationist friends, and our relationship is a little strained, and usually works around uneasy unspoken truces not to venture into anything about biology. I've had one such friendship veer into that, and said friend kept bringing creationism up again and again; so I did what I do: I pointed out the flaws and responded with about equal amounts of evidence for evolution (with an added set of extreme civility, because I was trying to win over that person, not any audience). Eventually this "friend" stopped talking to me altogether (purposefully); essentially I got the silent treatment and friendship ended because I disagreed... It's difficult just to hold friendships with creationists, a closer and deeper attachment seems extremely untenable.

So ultimately, no, it just seems incredibly unwise and easy to blow up and as one of those "children of divorce" (i hate the label), I'm a bit cautious about finding someone very "compatible" (by which I mean "similar", since that's what the research shows) and a very major disagreement with someone's core beliefs seems a very bad starting place.

Current wife is an in-your-face bitch with the whole world. And I love it. Nobody wonders where they stand with her, somebody comes to the door to witness, she tells them they're full of shit. At length. I think her older brother and myself are prettymuch the only people she's consistently nice to. Besides little kids who're moderately well behaved.

I wouldn't quite call that "bitch" so much as "asshole". To me "bitch" is one who is bitchy, and bitchy involves backstabbing and rumor creation and general subversion.

That's one of my favorite qualities about my griflriend: I never wonder where I stand with her. She tells me when she's unhappy with something. It's great. None of that bitchy "you should know what I am thinking" game-playing bullshit. This is pretty great: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-rKFQOMg0U

 

[borrofburi]

I know plenty of skeptics like us who will say matter-of-factly that we don't judge or shun people based on their beliefs. But we do. Like anyone else does, and maybe more than many believers. I don't happen to think this is a bad thing at all, especially in a choice of partner. It's foolish to choose to spend a great deal of time with, let alone marry, someone who has such a divergent belief structure from your own that conflict is essentially guaranteed. I tend to be an insufferable, pedantic jerk anyway (hard to tell, I know) so there's pretty much no way in hell that I could date a creationist; I'd spend all my time trying to bring her to reason. Not exactly an endeavor that is conducive to romance.

Depends on what you mean by "judge". I judge people all the time, it's fundamentally rooted in my very DNA (err brain construction) to make quick judgements about situations, things, people, etc. I've invested a lot of mental capacity in overruling such quick and shallow judgements as best I can, but the system is necessarily flawed, and the point isn't to stop making judgements, but to remember how quick and inaccurate these judgements are so they can be easily revised to be more accurate.

Shun though? Absolutely not. You can be my friend, you can be part of my peer group, you can be part of my community, and still be a creationist. You'll probably face some criticism for it (though if you'd prefer it to be off-limits, then we can probably do that too). But ultimately I generally don't care enough to be actively hostile to you over it. I do, however, care if you're an insufferable proselytizing asshole who is incapable of doing anything but continually try to convince me you're right (while often times ignoring my responses), but then I'm not "shunning you" because of your beliefs (unless its your belief that you must be such an asshole) but because I don't like you on an individual and inter-personal level... And that's hardly shunning someone based on their beliefs.

*Second person singular not used to intentionally mean "Memeticemetic", merely meant generally.

 

[borrofburi]

Well, I agree that disagreements should never be a driving factor in relationships (though I do thrive on conflict). But to never discuss my beliefs with my partner and have her not feel free to do so seems utterly horrible. It's moot as far as I'm concerned really, since I can only date women of equal or greater intelligence to myself. And the ability to discuss anything and everything we wish is of utmost importance for me.

While I certainly agree that intelligence is a very attractive trait, saying someone must be at least as smart as you to be dateable seems a bit... ambitious... Kind of like saying "I only date people at least as attractive as me..."

Still, I tend to prefer about a standard deviational difference within my "intelligence" (as though such a thing were easily quantified). She doesn't have to be smarter than me, just intelligent enough to have interesting discussions and conversations with about any topic other than my specialization (unless she's also in the same vocation). If she's too much smarter, I just worry I'm dragging her down... Though I have to admit that as I get older, answering the question of "is X smarter than me" is getting harder. When I was younger and was in primary and secondary education, we all had a very similar curriculum, it was easier to see who was "smarter" by grades, knowledge, speed of acquiring a new concept, etc. Now all my friends have their own respective specializations that are not my own (so I have no clue how good they are); and even those in my own field have varying levels of having already done this, so even within one group you'll have someone whose worked on similar projects for years while there's someone who is seeing this stuff for the very first time (so if someone appears to get it very fast, it could just be that they've already had years of experience with that particular concept or topic).

I can follow you, mate. Well, sort of. I was raised completely free of religious dogma so it can be difficult for me to truly appreciate how much of a trap for the mind it truly is. As a consequence I think I unfairly will conflate atheism and intelligence. And that really is bullshit; I gotta quit doing that.

I have the tendency to do it as well despite fundy upbringing. Though I am pleased with myself for not doing so in this thread; which is why I have the section on the fact that it matters why she's a YEC, and how she handles the disagreement and conflicting information.

Please excuse ramblings, it's late and I'm tired (about as close as I get to drunk), but I really don't want to delete it...

 

[Memeticemetic]

I know plenty of skeptics like us who will say matter-of-factly that we don't judge or shun people based on their beliefs. But we do. Like anyone else does, and maybe more than many believers. I don't happen to think this is a bad thing at all, especially in a choice of partner. It's foolish to choose to spend a great deal of time with, let alone marry, someone who has such a divergent belief structure from your own that conflict is essentially guaranteed. I tend to be an insufferable, pedantic jerk anyway (hard to tell, I know) so there's pretty much no way in hell that I could date a creationist; I'd spend all my time trying to bring her to reason. Not exactly an endeavor that is conducive to romance.

Depends on what you mean by "judge". I judge people all the time, it's fundamentally rooted in my very DNA (err brain construction) to make quick judgements about situations, things, people, etc. I've invested a lot of mental capacity in overruling such quick and shallow judgements as best I can, but the system is necessarily flawed, and the point isn't to stop making judgements, but to remember how quick and inaccurate these judgements are so they can be easily revised to be more accurate.

Shun though? Absolutely not. You can be my friend, you can be part of my peer group, you can be part of my community, and still be a creationist. You'll probably face some criticism for it (though if you'd prefer it to be off-limits, then we can probably do that too). But ultimately I generally don't care enough to be actively hostile to you over it. I do, however, care if you're an insufferable proselytizing asshole who is incapable of doing anything but continually try to convince me you're right (while often times ignoring my responses), but then I'm not "shunning you" because of your beliefs (unless its your belief that you must be such an asshole) but because I don't like you on an individual and inter-personal level... And that's hardly shunning someone based on their beliefs.

*Second person singular not used to intentionally mean "Memeticemetic", merely meant generally.

I meant precisely that in the word, "judge". Those who claim not to are simply lying or fools. I try to stick with my gut when it comes to judgments, first impressions being the most accurate and all. If I think it through too much, I may be inclined to like someone when they've already demonstrated that I cannot. It's much simpler with women; in these cases I go strictly by breast-size.

If you can't shun those who disagree with you, then I'm sorry borrofburi, we simply can't be mates, and I suspect you are not a true atheist. No one who does not share my core non-beliefs can ever be a member of my peer-group or community. And I reserve my right to share the good news that there is probably no god or gods at every opportunity I find; or can invent out of whole cloth. And if you will not accept the truth of my non-beliefs than I will damn well shun you. I will shun the holy bloody hell outta you. There are true non-believers and there is everyone else and never the twain shall meet.

^^A person who would mean the above would be someone I would judge harshly and shun for their beliefs. Beliefs of that ilk lead inexorably and irrevocably to the level of assholery that I could only ever achieve in satire. Which I lament sometimes because it might be fun to be that much of dick from time to time.

To summarize my summary: I will shun without further consideration a racist, a sexist, a homophobe, a Westboro Baptist church member, and ImprobableJoe.

 

[Memeticemetic]

While I certainly agree that intelligence is a very attractive trait, saying someone must be at least as smart as you to be dateable seems a bit... ambitious... Kind of like saying "I only date people at least as attractive as me..."

Still, I tend to prefer about a standard deviational difference within my "intelligence" (as though such a thing were easily quantified). She doesn't have to be smarter than me, just intelligent enough to have interesting discussions and conversations with about any topic other than my specialization (unless she's also in the same vocation). If she's too much smarter, I just worry I'm dragging her down... Though I have to admit that as I get older, answering the question of "is X smarter than me" is getting harder. When I was younger and was in primary and secondary education, we all had a very similar curriculum, it was easier to see who was "smarter" by grades, knowledge, speed of acquiring a new concept, etc. Now all my friends have their own respective specializations that are not my own (so I have no clue how good they are); and even those in my own field have varying levels of having already done this, so even within one group you'll have someone whose worked on similar projects for years while there's someone who is seeing this stuff for the very first time (so if someone appears to get it very fast, it could just be that they've already had years of experience with that particular concept or topic).

By this I really mean that I'm just not all that attracted to women who are not my intellectual equal in general. I've broken this guideline a time or two in my life but generally I've stuck with it. I really should have said, "I generally end up dating women at least as smart as me." I also don't date women until I've gotten to know them well enough to make a determination, roughly, of how intellectually compatible we are. Until I've figured that out, we're really just sleeping together, not dating.

I have the tendency to do it as well despite fundy upbringing. Though I am pleased with myself for not doing so in this thread; which is why I have the section on the fact that it matters why she's a YEC, and how she handles the disagreement and conflicting information.

It's the fundy upbringing that I find so fascinating in my online discussions with other atheists. I only have one friend in the real world who is still struggling with her emergence out of the light and I can only offer her rational support, I just have no frame of reference to truly empathize with her, much as I would like to.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

To summarize my summary: I will shun without further consideration a racist, a sexist, a homophobe, a Westboro Baptist church member, and ImprobableJoe.

*Scratching Memeticemetic off of the Xmas card list*

 

[Salphen]

Well, I suppose I could have used 'brutal and honest' to describe my wife. I just went with the descriptor I hear most from people

 

[borrofburi]

To summarize my summary: I will shun without further consideration a racist, a sexist, a homophobe, a Westboro Baptist church member, and ImprobableJoe.

Hmmm. On the one hand, good point, but on the other hand, looking through my list of friends, some of the fundamentalist christian friends are sexist homophobes. I criticize them when they express such things, and that makes it hard for us to have discussions without someone getting angry (or at least frustrated), which in turn does strain the friendship and push us apart; but we're still friends, even if the friendship can be mediocre, strained, and a bit distant.

I have the tendency to do it as well despite fundy upbringing. Though I am pleased with myself for not doing so in this thread; which is why I have the section on the fact that it matters why she's a YEC, and how she handles the disagreement and conflicting information.

It's the fundy upbringing that I find so fascinating in my online discussions with other atheists. I only have one friend in the real world who is still struggling with her emergence out of the light and I can only offer her rational support, I just have no frame of reference to truly empathize with her, much as I would like to.

Well... there's this series which helps a bit in understanding: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12rP8ybp13s&feature=BF&list=PLC5218644A52AB5F2&index=3
And there's this video which might give the friend some hope (as well as, maybe, the above video series): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyjNXdEGjO4