Has being honest ever gotten you more FEMALE ATTENTION?

[Yo Sushi]

Re: Has being honest ever gotten you more pussy?

In my experience, calling us pussy is a guaranteed way to not get any.

Lady, after an intro post this epic, you damn well better be planning on becoming a forum regular.

You better believe I'm going to continue to be a regular.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Quite intriguing. The responses to this post are very interesting.

No, I did not use a particular language to reference a woman. In fact the title was meant to reference the verb and it's role in society.
I find it interesting that the women responding associate the word as it has been used, with misogyny. Particularly considering the topic.

I hold no contempt or hatred of women. Are you going to call all things that clash with your world view of how words should be used, misogyny or racism or hatred now? How...narrow minded. I will concede that perhaps I should be wearing kiddy gloves with some civil discourse, but will say this in my defense.

I did not use this particular language because I was interested in getting any. My interest is in the subject, not "the reward".
For some of us, exploring the concept is worth the controversy.

I accept the warning and apologize to those who felt it necessary to interpret the post for their own gains.

Seriously? Worst explanation/apology ever.

It is pretty clear that you don't actually understand the criticism of your post at all. It is apparent from your half-hearted edit of the first post. Here, let me quote the part that stands out to me:

Though sometimes I wonder if it's worked for anyone, not flirting, just being honest with women.
I was specific in this post because I know that in the reverse by and large, if a woman was honest with a man about wanting to have RELATIONS, it would work.

Let's forget about the accusations of misogyny and all that for the moment. The place where you've got things wrong is in focusing on the "relations" aspect of sexual encounters, while completely dismissing the RELATIONSHIP aspect of it.

That's not to say that you need to be in a long-term committed relationship in order to have sex with someone. On the other hand your dismissal of flirting is pretty telling, because what you seem to be saying is that you want to skip all of the stuff where you're forced to interact with women on a personal level. What that indicates to the people who accuse you of misogyny is that you want to skip the "woman as human being" part and go straight to the "female organs as tools to let me have an orgasm"... which is a place you should NEVER be.

What you've done is reduced female human beings to a "life support system for the pussy" and expressed the desire to bypass the person and use their body as a masturbation device. At least as bad is that you've reduced flirting to nothing more than some sort of wasteful exercise that is preventing you from getting what you really want.

Dude... flirting is worth doing, not only as a means to an end but also as an end unto itself. Flirting is a fun way to get to know someone in a quick and usually entertaining way. Sure, it can involve some serious plays on words, but that's AWESOME! Flirting with someone who is witty and smart can be the best part of your day, because you get to be clever and have fun, and play off of the other person, and let them play off of you. The back and forth banter doesn't in the least have to lead to anything, it has value on its own. You get to know the way that other person's mind works to an extent, you can make a quick person-to-person connections.

I've been married now for a little over five years, and before that I was... let's not be crude, but very excessively successful with women. That happened in large part when I stopped being so "goal-oriented" with women, relaxed, and learned to enjoy women just because chicks are cool and fun, they are people and not just a way to get off or feel good about yourself. I still flirt plenty, and not just with my wife... although my wife and I still flirt with each other. It is a good time, believe me.

If you don't take anything else away from this thread, I hope you at least consider that if your "honesty" means that you just want to have sex, you're insulting that person and cheating yourself out of making a connection with another person.

 

[Krpi]

I thought the "honesty" part was about presenting yourself honestly and reacting honestly to whatever the other person tells you. I actually tested this once, when I was asked to talk about my aspirations in life and I gave the most boring (but honest) answer imaginable and that quite effectively killed the conversation. To my amusement, I might add, as the reason I chose to be honest at that particular moment was because this same question about honesty happened to pop into my mind. But the main thing here was that I knew my honest answer would go against the expectations that this particular inquiry about myself was loaded with. A different person might've had an honest but at the same time very interesting answer to the question.

If it's an environment where I need to make an impression in a fairly short amount of time being overly honest leads nowhere. It's the exact same thing as a job interview, first you make a good impression in order to earn a chance to show what you're really about.

As for random conversations/flirting in general I wish I shared mr. Improbable's view. I usually find myself indifferent towards most of such discussions. I always reply politely and pay attention but when it's clear that I'm talking just to pass time going through the motions feels completely meaningless and I find no joy in it.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

As for random conversations/flirting in general I wish I shared mr. Improbable's view. I usually find myself indifferent towards most of such discussions. I always reply politely and pay attention but when it's clear that I'm talking just to pass time going through the motions feels completely meaningless and I find no joy in it.

My advice is to find a better class of person to converse with.

Of course, an important point to note is that you have to pick your venue wisely. If you're a guy in high school and you're trying to pick up a drunk cheerleader who is barely passing her classes, you're sort of probably out of luck. If you're a girl in college and you're talking to a hot guy in your Physics II class, your chances of a fun flirtatious conversation are a lot better.

Plus, it is up to you to make conversations worth having. If you've decided that you are just going through the motions, of course the other person is going to take the same attitude! This goes beyond flirting and trying to have sex, and goes to a more general way of moving through life... you get what you give. When I go places, I go out of my way to be nice to people. When the guy at the grocery store bags my food, I'll ask him how he's doing or joke about the "paper or plastic" question. When I'm walking my dog I wave at my neighbors driving past, and talk to anyone else outside at the same time. I'll have a conversation with a cashier at whatever store I'm at. And, believe it or not, I'm extremely shy by nature. I FORCE myself to interact with the people around me in a ppositive way, because it make the world a better place, or at least my little corner of it.

So don't go through the motions. Interact with other people, and allow them to be the center of your attention for a few minutes. If the conversation seems boring then try to make it more interesting. And if your aspirations in life are boring even to you... it might be time to change direction, don't you think? No matter what the topic, it is almost always engaging to hear someone talk about something they are passionate about. If you're boring people, maybe you aren't passionate enough about the subject to devote your life to it?

 

[nemesiss]

getting attention isn't too much of a problem...

if it has the result you desired, thats a different story.


running around school naked will certaintly get their attention, though i don't think it'll work.

 

[Private_slim]

So, who should I agree with here? There are plenty of good points, but also some bad generalizations going on here.

First of. Joe, I like your view on the world and share your love for, well, just a good flirt, It's a fun activity and as you say a really good way to get to know people. And I recommend flirting with every girl you meet, just for the fun of it.

But let's be honest here, there are times when you just want to bang someone, and here is where the bad generalizations begin, with the "objectifying the girl" "she only becomes life support for the vagina" and so on.
Sex is a wonderful activity, and, at least I, strive for it to be a mutually good experience, so that, even if it's just a physical relationship, and it might just be for one night, it's still a good thing. And sex is a good thing, there are just people who wish to immoralize it.
Sex isn't reserved for relationships, it's a fun and beautiful way to interact with another person, it has value in it's own.

Now for the actual question, have saying "I'm not looking for something serious, I'm just looking for a good night" to the girl I was chatting up gotten me anywhere? You betya.
Have I ever gotten a request from the other side for "just a night of fun" that too. funny how that works, take away the stigmas and people open up to what they want.

But to the bastards who don't give a fuck about how the girl liked it and just finished up without caring where she was at: Fuck you, go see a hooker instead, they actually try to get you there as fast as possible, so if you just need a load of by another hand than your own, don't ruin the night for someone else, pay for the fucking service.

 

[Ibis3]

There's nothing wrong with having sex for fun (and I've had a few very pleasant one night stands myself), but treating women as though they are objects to be obtained solely for one's own personal pleasure without respect for them as human beings (as Demojen did in his initial post ) is not fun or pleasant as ImprobableJoe pointed out (thanks, btw IJ). Then it's just hurtful and degrading.

Honesty will achieve what you want if what you want is to relate with another human being. If what you want is an instrument you can use, honesty will work only if you're talking to a prostitute and follow it up with cash.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

First of. Joe, I like your view on the world and share your love for, well, just a good flirt, It's a fun activity and as you say a really good way to get to know people. And I recommend flirting with every girl you meet, just for the fun of it.

But let's be honest here, there are times when you just want to bang someone, and here is where the bad generalizations begin, with the "objectifying the girl" "she only becomes life support for the vagina" and so on.

Well, not really. The "bad generalizations" began with the claim that being forced to have conversations was a boring waste of time, and flirting is dishonest because you don't want to waste time when you could be having sex instead. There's nothing wrong with talking to someone, flirting with them, and then having sex with them even with the understanding that it isn't serious and it won't lead to a serious relationship. That sort of honesty about intentions doesn't prevent being friendly and engaged in the other person as a human being.

You can be friends with benefits, or just a hookup, without objectifying the other person. The problem comes when you're saying "I don't give a crap to hear anything about you, just shut up and let me screw you." That was the attitude that came through at the start of this thread.

 

[australopithecus]

Being honest got me pussy.















































I said "Yes, I love animals" and they gave me a cat.

 

[Demojen]

I like this. At least now we're making some progress.
I was afraid that this post would just turn into a flame-war, as it seems that some would rather flame then discuss the issue.

ImprobableJoe, you make some valid points.
"Dude... flirting is worth doing, not only as a means to an end but also as an end unto itself."

Of course it is worth doing. It is necessary. What is the point in developing a society without the social aspects, after all?

I will concede that I neglected to fully explore the various aspects of relations and the many and varied methods of relating to others and that it may appear that I was dismissing the critical importance of developing some form of a personal relationship to focus instead on the superficial relationship humans desire, but you must understand that this post is not a dissertation on human nature. This post began with a QUESTION.

I find it amusing, all of the people who are willing to cry foul for what kind of person they assume I am, all the while only revealing what sort of person they are(Not necessarily you Joe).

If you have a question, that is great, but do not presume my questions, my curiosity or lack of understanding on a subject is any reflection of my character in relation to its practice.

I have not reduced females in any way shape or form by ASKING A QUESTION.
I apologized for the language I used. I did not and will not apologize for asking a question.

Krpi, your statements ring more true to my particular intentions in this post and I thank you for taking the time to discuss the subject as it relates to the post instead of conflating what is read between the lines to imply something more.

I have also noticed that in this society it seems that most children are raised to believe it is the role of the male of the species to "Do the mating dance", go through the motions, ask for the date and attempt to swoon their other party. I would like to believe that we aren't going to be stuck in this "Women are from Venus, men are from mars" mindset that at least this north american culture has adopted. Maybe it's alot different elsewhere in other cultures.

It is fortunate for this forum that ad hominem attacks aren't considered harassment. I've seen far more specific attacks on my character for asking the question then I've ever presented generally in response.

I'm not the one being hateful here.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Demojen, you have admited that you started with an inflammatory opening to this topic, so I'm willing to move past that for the moment.

However, you need to clarify what you mean by "honesty" in the sort of situations that have come up in this thread. Feel free to express exactly what situation you mean, and what sort of honest statement you would like to make. I think that you should explain yourself and your viewpoint as strongly as you can before anyone passes judgment on you.

 

[ArthurWilborn]

Hi Demojen!

Ah, I used to be more like you when I was younger. All I can say is, you're not as clever as you think you are, but you can get there with some work.

I've found that being honest with your intentions is absolutely essential to gaining female companionship, and it's worked for me with a number of females; including my lovely wife.

My method (simplified, of course):

1) Express interest. This should be small but definite, and it needs to come early. Let her know you want her company, but be a bit vague on what that entails.

2) Dangle a hook. This could be flashy dance moves, a nice smile, clever lines, whatever. Give her something to respond to.

3) Let her respond. The response might be no; if it is, best not to push it, especially if all you want is short term company. If she shows interest (be honest with yourself), then you have an in.

4) Press. This is the delicate part; you can't let her be confused as to your intentions, but you can't make her feel trapped. If she retreats at all, stop.

Keep iterating 3 and 4 with some pauses in between to ... aaa ... I don't know how to name it exactly, but humans need some mental cool down time to assimilate changes (in this case in a personal relationship), so you have to give them that time or people get all confused and anxious.

If it helps, think of as a waltz; you offer your arm, the lady takes it, and you go back and forth.

As for the lines about lowered standards in your OP that people interpreted as misogynistic; I think you just have some self-confidence issues. Buck up, man! Clearly you're fairly intelligent, so you should be able to make a good presentation.

 

[Andiferous]

I find it amusing, all of the people who are willing to cry foul for what kind of person they assume I am, all the while only revealing what sort of person they are(Not necessarily you Joe).

What kind of person they are... oh, do you mean of the female type? (As opposed to feline) :lol:

The irony - there's so much of it.

 

[Private_slim]

Well, not really. The "bad generalizations" began with the claim that being forced to have conversations was a boring waste of time, and flirting is dishonest because you don't want to waste time when you could be having sex instead. There's nothing wrong with talking to someone, flirting with them, and then having sex with them even with the understanding that it isn't serious and it won't lead to a serious relationship. That sort of honesty about intentions doesn't prevent being friendly and engaged in the other person as a human being.

You can be friends with benefits, or just a hookup, without objectifying the other person. The problem comes when you're saying "I don't give a crap to hear anything about you, just shut up and let me screw you." That was the attitude that came through at the start of this thread.

Thanks for pointing that out.


ArthurWilborne, giving Demojen a crash course in hooking up! (y)
For all you rooks out there, number 4 is essential. If she says no in any way, walk away, you wont make it better by adding more press.
How does that saying go; do not care about the 99 that say no, care about the 1 that says yes.

"Empty orchestra" Now isn't that just hauntingly beautiful.

 

[TH3-Oval]

well, if understanding of the womans mind is what you want you merely have to look at the diagram:

http://www.eclecticexpression.com/images/wombrain.jpg

 

[Andiferous]

Err...

 

[borrofburi]

well, if understanding of the womans mind is what you want you merely have to look at the diagram:

http://www.eclecticexpression.com/images/wombrain.jpg

There we go, now we have something that very clearly insults about half of humanity based on a single chromosomal difference (as well as cultural upbringing), all the ambiguity is gone: we have an image that is clearly sexist.



For the record: a couple days ago I was going to make the same points Prolescum made, and then I realized that's not what Joe was saying, then I was going to leave the post anyway because I thought it made some worthwhile points, then I read further and noticed the exchange between Prolescum and Joe had already happened and everything in my post had been said, so I just deleted it. In short, y'all need to be less involved in the forum so I can say insightful things too...

 

[TH3-Oval]

There we go, now we have something that very clearly insults about half of humanity based on a single chromosomal difference (as well as cultural upbringing), all the ambiguity is gone: we have an image that is clearly sexist.



For the record: a couple days ago I was going to make the same points Prolescum made, and then I realized that's not what Joe was saying, then I was going to leave the post anyway because I thought it made some worthwhile points, then I read further and noticed the exchange between Prolescum and Joe had already happened and everything in my post had been said, so I just deleted it. In short, y'all need to be less involved in the forum so I can say insightful things too...

aww come on it was just a little joke, I assume no one will take it seriously and had no intention for insult.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

well, if understanding of the womans mind is what you want you merely have to look at the diagram:

http://www.eclecticexpression.com/images/wombrain.jpg

There we go, now we have something that very clearly insults about half of humanity based on a single chromosomal difference (as well as cultural upbringing), all the ambiguity is gone: we have an image that is clearly sexist.



For the record: a couple days ago I was going to make the same points Prolescum made, and then I realized that's not what Joe was saying, then I was going to leave the post anyway because I thought it made some worthwhile points, then I read further and noticed the exchange between Prolescum and Joe had already happened and everything in my post had been said, so I just deleted it. In short, y'all need to be less involved in the forum so I can say insightful things too...

Or you could just make me a Time Lord and be done with it?

 

[borrofburi]

There we go, now we have something that very clearly insults about half of humanity based on a single chromosomal difference (as well as cultural upbringing), all the ambiguity is gone: we have an image that is clearly sexist.

aww come on it was just a little joke, I assume no one will take it seriously and had no intention for insult.

I took great care to only point out that the image was sexist (i.e. avoid insinuating anything about you).