Guns

[GoodKat]

I think it is probably OK... it is a good thing for people to keep their interest in firearms in some sort of reasonable perspective. They are fun and cool and whatever, but we shouldn't mistake "want" for "need" or think that there's much real-world use for being a crack shot with a firearm.

You should check out the gun forums like thehighroad, some nutcases over there. Decent source of information on guns, but don't even mention politics, it's like whacking a hornet's nest with a stick.

 

[irmerk]

I am so going there and bashing the NRA. Kowabunga!

 

[ImprobableJoe]

You should check out the gun forums like thehighroad, some nutcases over there. Decent source of information on guns, but don't even mention politics, it's like whacking a hornet's nest with a stick.

No thanks... I don't need to see any more gun nuts giving shooters a bad name, TYVM.

 

[Xulld]

I think guns are tools which have been taken out of context of usage and overrated; I will never need to use one.

For your sake I hope your right. Myself I am not so optimistic. This is why I carry a Sig.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

For your sake I hope your right. Myself I am not so optimistic. This is why I carry a Sig.

He's right. You are probably too pessimistic. Believe me, I've "war-games" many situations, and my educated guess is that you don't need a pistol, and the odds are that you'll fuck up and get yourself killed if you are in a situation where you really need a pistol.

 

[Xulld]

War is not the most probable need in my area. On more then one occasion I have felt better, and more capable knowing it was there, I have had a friend murdered, and if she had one . . . . who knows. I have had a friend who very wisely saved himself from probable beating, potential death by having one, and knowing just the right time to bring it out (legally).

Probabilities are based on statistics, I choose to be a deciding factor in whether I become one.


___________

I myself have never had need to draw a gun myself. I have always been the guy to talk my way out of hostile situations, not shit talk my way into them.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

War is not the most probable need in my area. On more then one occasion I have felt better, and more capable knowing it was there, I have had a friend murdered, and if she had one . . . . who knows. I have had a friend who very wisely saved himself from probable beating, potential death by having one, and knowing just the right time to bring it out (legally).

Probabilities are based on statistics, I choose to be a deciding factor in whether I become one.


___________

I myself have never had need to draw a gun myself. I have always been the guy to talk my way out of hostile situations, not shit talk my way into them.

That's two... not discounting their experiences, but that's two out of the tens of thousands of people who you'll come across in a lifetime. Anecdotes are the worst and least reliable kinds of evidence.

 

[Xulld]

That's two... not discounting their experiences, but that's two out of the tens of thousands of people who you'll come across in a lifetime. Anecdotes are the worst and least reliable kinds of evidence.

Look my only point is that any % when it comes to the only life you have IMHO is too high to chance to trusting the authorities to my only life's security, or the security of the other lives I am interested in preserving such as my family. I will trust only one person to my security.

The fact that people are murdered even only 1, is enough for me.

The cost of owning a gun vs the benefit ratio of never using it is moot in the face of the loss of life for not having it if your the unlucky chap to need one.


----

I wholly accept your point, I hope your right and I never need it. I hope you also understand my point of view.

 

[GoodKat]

The middle ground between both of your points is to carry a little gun like a Ruger LCP that you can stick in your front pocket, as long as you load it with good SD ammo like Hydra-Shok they still have pretty good stopping power. I plan on getting an NAA Guardian .380. BTW, what sig do you carry, P232?

 

[Xulld]

Yup, its a Sig Sauer P232. Loaded with Speer Gold dot. When I got into the accident I sold all the rest of my guns (needed cash bad for transportation) except a super cheap pump shotty that wouldn't have fetched much and this for personal protection.

In home defense id use the shotty (to limit wall penetration, not that the 380 has a lot but more then pellets from a sawed off), but again like has been mentioned I hope that never to be needed.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

The middle ground between both of your points is to carry a little gun like a Ruger LCP that you can stick in your front pocket, as long as you load it with good SD ammo like Hydra-Shok they still have pretty good stopping power. I plan on getting an NAA Guardian .380. BTW, what sig do you carry, P232?

That's not really a middle ground. A middle ground is pepper spray and taking extra steps to avoid dangerous situations.

 

[GoodKat]

Yup, its a Sig Sauer P232. Loaded with Speer Gold dot.

You seen Sig's new .380? I personally don't care for it, it looks deformed. I think if I was going to carry a Sig, it would be a P239 in .40, since there are several 9mm's smaller than the P232 like the Kahr PM9 and the really tiny Rohrbaugh R9, my father has a 232 though, and he swears he will never sell it.

 

[GoodKat]

That's not really a middle ground. A middle ground is pepper spray and taking extra steps to avoid dangerous situations.

Maybe not an exact center, but still somewhere in the middle

I'd probably go with the pocket gun, they disappear in your pocket and most assailants will run at the sight of one. This is of course all assuming that concealed carry is legal in your area.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Maybe not an exact center, but still somewhere in the middle

I'd probably go with the pocket gun, they disappear in your pocket and most assailants will run at the sight of one. This is of course all assuming that concealed carry is legal in your area.

Carrying a small gun (or ANY gun) is not a middle ground between being armed and avoiding all conflict.

 

[GoodKat]

Carrying a small gun (or ANY gun) is not a middle ground between being armed and avoiding all conflict.

It's in between carrying a gun the size of a 232 in some kind of holster, and trying to avoid all conflict. Remember, not all conflict is avoidable, but even in an unavoidable situation, pulling a gun should always be a last resort, and one should do their very best to not have to pull the trigger.

 

[irmerk]

Look my only point is that any % when it comes to the only life you have IMHO is too high to chance to trusting the authorities to my only life's security, or the security of the other lives I am interested in preserving such as my family. I will trust only one person to my security... The cost of owning a gun vs the benefit ratio of never using it is moot in the face of the loss of life for not having it if your the unlucky chap to need one.

This reminds me of Pascal's Wager, or an episode of House. House tried to convince an old acquaintance that this girl that just recently contacted him (the acquaintance) who said she was his child was trying to con him. He urged the guy to do a DNA test. The guy had the conundrum of doing it and proving his distrust in the girl or not doing it and being wrong.

Probably lacks a direct relation, but in my mind it made sense. Distrusting real life so much that you need a heavily powered tool that should not have even been built for what it currently has been to scare anyone away? This just seems like the argument that more guns equals less crime.

 

[Synystyr]

I want my own gun. I'm not really living according to my principles, seeing as I don't currently have one, but I do believe people should have them. I just despise the NRA because they are composed of right wing evangelical, stealth-theocratic nutjobs. Disarmed, or poorly armed people are the first victims of fascism. If only the Spanish revolutionaries defeated Franco...

 

[GoodKat]

I want my own gun. I'm not really living according to my principles, seeing as I don't currently have one, but I do believe people should have them.

Mossberg 500 Shotgun is an inexpensive place to start.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

The problem is that shooting someone is a 100% not-middle-ground move. The idea of shooting someone is always the most extreme position. Pretending that carrying a smaller gun is a middle position is fucking stupid. Potentially killing someone with a big bullet or a small bullet are both on the far extreme of possible moves. An in-between, middle, moderate position would be pepper spray, Tasers, and high-tech security. Any gun counts as an extreme move, period.

 

[GoodKat]

The problem is that shooting someone is a 100% not-middle-ground move. The idea of shooting someone is always the most extreme position. Pretending that carrying a smaller gun is a middle position is fucking stupid. Potentially killing someone with a big bullet or a small bullet are both on the far extreme of possible moves. An in-between, middle, moderate position would be pepper spray, Tasers, and high-tech security. Any gun counts as an extreme move, period.

I guess I was thinking more along the lines of "convenience vs safety". Carrying a gun doesn't mean shooting someone, the majority of the time an assailant runs away at the sight of the gun, and if they don't, then you probably need the gun. I really do wish that there was a taser that fit in my pocket, scared off attackers on sight, and fired repeatedly without reloading, I would certainly carry it instead of a gun. The way I see it though, is that there is practically no downside to carrying a gun that disappears in your front pocket if it's legal and you're mentally competent enough, and it's vastly more effective than less than lethal devices in the majority of circumstances.