Ad Initium
New Member
AWESOME .... ty for you to link this .. I am going to use this in a video!Hedley said:
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Fuck Vegan BS!
- Thread starter Hedley
- Start date
There's no question eating some plants can be healthy. The questions arise in the debate as to whether or not eating some meat is.
I challenge the study that claims eating meat is unhealthy, on the premise its research is being performed in cultural hubs of countries that don't eat healthy meat. China, for instance over the last decade has been consuming more and more McDonalds and KFC products. If a study is going to claim meat is in all forms essentially a negative contribution to the human diet, it needs to explain in far more detail then to generalize a diet using two cultural studies performed decades apart in a country being *invaded* by Western influence.
If the question is, "Is the atypical western diet better then the atypical eastern diet?" the answer is an unequivocal NO. I didn't have to study the diet of eastern culture to tell you that. The atypical western diet (used in this study for comparison) is on a global scale THE WORST diet of any culture on the planet.
Now, if they were serious about this study, they would've studied diets that include meat that isn't processed like it is in the west.
I challenge the study that claims eating meat is unhealthy, on the premise its research is being performed in cultural hubs of countries that don't eat healthy meat. China, for instance over the last decade has been consuming more and more McDonalds and KFC products. If a study is going to claim meat is in all forms essentially a negative contribution to the human diet, it needs to explain in far more detail then to generalize a diet using two cultural studies performed decades apart in a country being *invaded* by Western influence.
If the question is, "Is the atypical western diet better then the atypical eastern diet?" the answer is an unequivocal NO. I didn't have to study the diet of eastern culture to tell you that. The atypical western diet (used in this study for comparison) is on a global scale THE WORST diet of any culture on the planet.
Now, if they were serious about this study, they would've studied diets that include meat that isn't processed like it is in the west.
If the typical western diet is so bad, why do people in the west live so much longer on average?
I give you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
Don't know exactly where Japan would fit into western/eastern but they definitely eat meat and fish and have a pretty large western influence in their culture. Hell, they eat Whale in japan. Pretty sure Whale is a meat. They also process their food. A lot. I don't think it's food processing that's unhealthy.
I give you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
Don't know exactly where Japan would fit into western/eastern but they definitely eat meat and fish and have a pretty large western influence in their culture. Hell, they eat Whale in japan. Pretty sure Whale is a meat. They also process their food. A lot. I don't think it's food processing that's unhealthy.
kenandkids
New Member
Unwardil said:
Japan only started eating a lot of meat a few decades ago. You can't simply call all animal flesh "meat." They had a traditionally fish and vegetable diet, with meats as an occasional add-on to a meal. Their culture has seen a very definite decline in overall health since westernisation.
kenandkids
New Member
Unwardil said:
They also possess the best medical technology. Imagine if they would combine the medical advances with a healthy diet...
Until a controlled study is done that proves a benefit, I'm against the westernised concept of carnivorism. I am an omnivore, but I'm not blind to the benefits of a mostly vegetarian lifestyle. Veganism is far too extreme and is fundamentally not good for our physiology, but the modernised nations place far too much importance on meat. Japan pre WWII should be the example we strive for in societal diet imo.
But Japan also has one of the best health care systems in the world. If good health care is to be more attributed to the longevity in other nations, why not also in Japan? Why is their diet the magic ingredient where as in Iceland, it's just their excellent health care system?
I agree that there are far too many factors to be considering, but looking at average life expectancy is a very good way to gauge the overall healthiness of the average life style of a country, wouldn't you say?
However, here's some better reasons to eat meat as a primary source of protein.
1: The amount of effort required in production vs the amount of calories obtained through eating it.
Milk, beef and wheat are the most efficient foods on the planet for this. Not a lot of beef mind you, because strictly speaking, wheat is much more efficient, but nothing else packs the caloric punch of beef. They eat grass which humans can't metabolize and they turn it into milk and meat which we can. From a strictly efficiency based perspective, beef is fantastic stuff.
That means you can feed a lot more people with beef than you can with vegetables, which means you need a lower percentage of land given over to farming and it means you need a lower percentage of people working in agriculture required to feed your population and that means more people working on more interesting things than simply keeping us fed and, well, living. It leads to a richer, fuller society and it's all thanks to beef. And wheat. Actually a lot more wheat really, but you need protein from somewhere, so, beef too. All the other stuff is just a the plentiful diversity allowed by having the strong base.
I agree that there are far too many factors to be considering, but looking at average life expectancy is a very good way to gauge the overall healthiness of the average life style of a country, wouldn't you say?
However, here's some better reasons to eat meat as a primary source of protein.
1: The amount of effort required in production vs the amount of calories obtained through eating it.
Milk, beef and wheat are the most efficient foods on the planet for this. Not a lot of beef mind you, because strictly speaking, wheat is much more efficient, but nothing else packs the caloric punch of beef. They eat grass which humans can't metabolize and they turn it into milk and meat which we can. From a strictly efficiency based perspective, beef is fantastic stuff.
That means you can feed a lot more people with beef than you can with vegetables, which means you need a lower percentage of land given over to farming and it means you need a lower percentage of people working in agriculture required to feed your population and that means more people working on more interesting things than simply keeping us fed and, well, living. It leads to a richer, fuller society and it's all thanks to beef. And wheat. Actually a lot more wheat really, but you need protein from somewhere, so, beef too. All the other stuff is just a the plentiful diversity allowed by having the strong base.
kenandkids
New Member
Unwardil said:
Where do you live, that cows are fed grass? If you live in a western nation, cows are one of the most energy and money consuming sources of food, second to pigs.
Independent Vision
New Member
Unwardil said:
1. Okay.
You are wrong, as far as my data is concerned.
Beef is not efficient, neither is milk. Calorie wise you usually need up to 10 times as much feed to gain 1 unit of beef. Grass? technically wheat is a grass. Cows need to eat too, you know? And a lot more than we do.
And again, wrong. I can show you the UN studies on it, if you would like, but I would love to see your sources first.
What about soy protein? Or wheat protein?
Beef farming takes more land to feed people. Where do you get your numbers?
Ad Initium
New Member
And this is what I made of the little vegan girl:
Yeah, I think I was either drunk or delirious from sickness when I wrote that.
It's more an argument for modernized farming methods than anything else which is tangentially related to veganism but only tangentially. Wheat it's true of, but not beef. Of the meats, beef is the most efficient, so if you're going to eat meat, might as well be beef but it's not as land efficient as photosynthetic food.
Ultimately, what's healthy will depend on the individual metabolism of the person in question. Humans, as a species, are omnivorous because we are the result of an ancestry of other omnivorous hominids. At some point in our distant past, being able to eat basically anything was an evolutionary advantage and those who rolled with it survived, procreated and lead to us. If you're living in a temperate climate without modern preservatives, eating meat is clearly a necessity, because it's the only way you're going to get protein and vitamin D in the winter, but that's no longer true.
So it might actually be more healthy to cut meat from your diet, but there's so damn many things that might be healthy to do that I can't be arsed with and seeing as I like meat, I'm gonna keep eating it.
It's more an argument for modernized farming methods than anything else which is tangentially related to veganism but only tangentially. Wheat it's true of, but not beef. Of the meats, beef is the most efficient, so if you're going to eat meat, might as well be beef but it's not as land efficient as photosynthetic food.
Ultimately, what's healthy will depend on the individual metabolism of the person in question. Humans, as a species, are omnivorous because we are the result of an ancestry of other omnivorous hominids. At some point in our distant past, being able to eat basically anything was an evolutionary advantage and those who rolled with it survived, procreated and lead to us. If you're living in a temperate climate without modern preservatives, eating meat is clearly a necessity, because it's the only way you're going to get protein and vitamin D in the winter, but that's no longer true.
So it might actually be more healthy to cut meat from your diet, but there's so damn many things that might be healthy to do that I can't be arsed with and seeing as I like meat, I'm gonna keep eating it.
Independent Vision
New Member
Unwardil said:
Lol... go for drunk. I can respect a drunk. When one is delirious from sickness one cannot spell, or at least do not care about spelling. :lol:
Ack... yeah. I know. I cannot eat meat without discomfort to my intestine. Maybe I am allergic, maybe it is commercial meat. Maybe I am just a mutant... but so far so good. Good teeth, good muscle development and good iron levels all around. Have not eaten red meat for 10 years soon, and been a vegan on and off, felt fabulous, but it is a bit of a chore to keep up like any diet for health. I always protein combine meals, to this day though, as well as vitamin combine them. Vitamin C and Iron are good to combine, etc, etc.
I would not go back to eating meat if I could. I cry over cows. I call it an occupational hazard after having been vegetarian, pescarian and vegan on and off for so long. And yes, I would feel bad every time I ate a fish. My husband still eats meat, though as long as it has been treated humanely... aside from pork. He cannot eat pigs meat. His morality prevents him from eating an animal with self awareness.
Morality, ecology, solidarity and sustainability are all issues we deal with daily in looking after our diet, as well as health. But we are freaks, my husband and me.
(And yes, vegetarian check my alcohol. Most of my favorite drinks are vegetarian, aside from my favorite Irish stouts. It pains me not to drink them, but I do not)
Only vitamin that you cannot get from vegetable sources in adequate levels (aside from dietary supplements, which might not even be effective) is active B12, at least not that has been scientifically verified, even though data is low on that (Oh, there are ways to get B12, but I would rather not eat my own feces). However the body is a nifty thing, and if you go full vegan without supplements and do not have a metabolic problem, or is an alcoholic, it will take the average human being around 20 to 30 years to reach a level of depletion.
If you are lazy, like meat and is not burdened with my level of bleeding heart, it is much easier to eat meat and not think about it.
Which I know my parents and sisters do. I live by the philosophy that if you could stand to kill it yourself, eat it. I could not bare to kill a cow unless I had to in order to ensure my own survival, so I do not eat it. :mrgreen:
Andiferous
New Member
Technically, most of the beef I consume is grass-fed as I have ordered portions directly from farmers the last several years (although in actuality, I find it has a more 'beefy' flavour that tastes a bit yucky - I find that grain fed does actually taste better).
I've tried vegetarian diets many times over, but I find that most folks forget about nutritional balance and limiting factors such as lactose intolerance, Celiacs' disease, and so forth, that already restrict a person from a major food group (or two).
I love animals, but particularly with a growing daughter about, I can't afford to be righteous about this stuff.
I've tried vegetarian diets many times over, but I find that most folks forget about nutritional balance and limiting factors such as lactose intolerance, Celiacs' disease, and so forth, that already restrict a person from a major food group (or two).
I love animals, but particularly with a growing daughter about, I can't afford to be righteous about this stuff.
Giliell
New Member
Sorry, but that's BS.Unwardil said:
It's the "a day at the farm" image in the book my toddler kid has. Modern milk cows are mostly fed special high protein- high calorie stuff. Remember Mad Cow Syndrome? It most likely came from the fact that we fed the cows grounded up animals because that was a cheap way to give them the energy they need for their milk-production. To produce beef and milk on gras you need huge areas and lots of time. If you do it that way, you get very little beef. Sorry, no Hamburgers again this month. High meat consumption isn't only a problem of our western health (yes, too much red meat will increase your risk of colon-cancer), it's also a problem of global food supply, because a huge percentage of it is used to produce meat (I've read numbers of up to 80%, but I haven't found one that seems to have solid calculations behind it). Typically, for 1 unit of beef, you need 90 units of cereal and that is a lot.
The way I see it: get back to Granny's cooking. Yes, on Sundays my grandma would serve her family a roast or something like that. On Monday there would be left overs. For the rest of the week, there might be a bit of bacon in it for the flavour. That way I can also afford to buy the really expensive but really good meat where the animals have been farmed ethically.
I grew up on stews. We couldn't afford meat all of the time. Barley stew is awesome. If you like beef, just put beef bullion cubes in it
I eat meat whenever, but it's never been a staple for me.
I still don't buy the argument that a meatless diet is ideal and it's going to take more then a study of a few thousand people in China over the course of a couple decades suggesting that meat's a "western" influence to support that it is.
The typical westerners diet isn't particularly healthy, but "the west" is so multicultural, you could say the same for the indian diet, the chinese diet, japanese and any number of cultures that influence "western culture" and dieting. If, however you're calling McDonalds and KFC the "Western Diet" or what Americans eat the "Western Diet", you're also missing South America and Canada.
Consuming meat isn't a western thing. It's aaaaall over the world. Stop trying to demonize being a carnivore by throwing the stigma of "western influence" into it, or worse, implying that western influence is inherently bad as it relates to scientific studies performed by the very same culture.
I eat meat whenever, but it's never been a staple for me.
I still don't buy the argument that a meatless diet is ideal and it's going to take more then a study of a few thousand people in China over the course of a couple decades suggesting that meat's a "western" influence to support that it is.
The typical westerners diet isn't particularly healthy, but "the west" is so multicultural, you could say the same for the indian diet, the chinese diet, japanese and any number of cultures that influence "western culture" and dieting. If, however you're calling McDonalds and KFC the "Western Diet" or what Americans eat the "Western Diet", you're also missing South America and Canada.
Consuming meat isn't a western thing. It's aaaaall over the world. Stop trying to demonize being a carnivore by throwing the stigma of "western influence" into it, or worse, implying that western influence is inherently bad as it relates to scientific studies performed by the very same culture.