Evidence for/against YEC

[SpecialFrog]

Judges 1:19[/url]"]And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

This means that men with chariots of iron are, at least, as powerful as an omnipotent God.

I always interpreted that to mean that iron chariots were kind of like God's Kryptonite. Having Kryptonite doesn't make you as powerful as Superman but it reduces his power.

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

judges 1:19 God was with Judah and he possessed the mountains, for he could not drive out the inhabitants of the valleys, because they had chariots of iron.

Read " for he possessed the mountains..." See the small "h" of he? It refers to Judah... Not God.

I'm fully aware that it refers to Judah.

Judges 1:19 reads God was with Judah and he(Judah) possessed the mountains, for he (Judah) could not drive out the inhabitants of the valleys because they(Canaanites) had chariots of Iron.

Refer to battle with Deborah and Balak where God confused the 900 chariots of Jabin and delivered siseria into the hand of the Israelites. Here we see God defeating and army of chariots, is then God not strong enough? By no means.

The verse shows Judah could not, not God could not. God was with Judah for defeating the people of the mountains (refer to judges 1:18) but God withdrew his help from Judah after the sin of unbelief that God would help them defeat the iron chariots, thus he (Judah) could not drive them out. Hence the verse says " they had chariots of Iron.. Very articulate... They lost the faith that God would help them defeat their enemies, because of chariots of Iron.

What does this do for my faith? It strengthens it.

What "sin of unbelief"?

Kindest regards,

James

 

[Dustnite]

"The Jatravartids believe that the universe was sneezed out of the nose of the Great Green Arklseizure. They live in permanent fear of a time they call The Coming of the Great White Handkerchief." - HGTTG

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

Sin of unbelief: not believing Gods promises.

Where in Judges does it mention this?

Kindest regards,

James

 

[australopithecus]

Sin of unbelief: not believing Gods promises.

So thoughtcrime, then? Your friend doesn't sound nice, if I'm being honest.

 

[Dustnite]

“Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one’s mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.”
― George Orwell, 1984

Bernie, living in your head must be exhausting...

 

[Mr_Wilford]

Now my interpretation.

God gave Judah strength to lead his army, and that motivation empowered them to take over the mountains. However, he got to cocky and underestimated the people on the plains weaponry and it backfired on him, so they were not able to take the plains.

That's a lot nicer than thoughtcrime, no?

 

[Bango Skank]

Another part that gives a doubt about omnipotence of God.

2 Kings 3:18 "This is an easy thing in the eyes of the Lord; he will also deliver Moab into your hands. 19 You will overthrow every fortified city and every major town. You will cut down every good tree, stop up all the springs, and ruin every good field with stones.”

Yet in later...

2 Kings 3:24 "But when the Moabites came to the camp of Israel, the Israelites rose up and fought them until they fled. And the Israelites invaded the land and slaughtered the Moabites. 25 They destroyed the towns, and each man threw a stone on every good field until it was covered. They stopped up all the springs and cut down every good tree. Only Kir Hareseth was left with its stones in place, but men armed with slings surrounded it and attacked it.

26 When the king of Moab saw that the battle had gone against him, he took with him seven hundred swordsmen to break through to the king of Edom, but they failed. 27 Then he took his firstborn son, who was to succeed him as king, and offered him as a sacrifice on the city wall. The fury against Israel was great; they withdrew and returned to their own land."

God of Moabites (Chemosh) was too strong for God of Israelites (Yahweh) apparently.

 

[Mr_Wilford]

Eh, that feels like a bit of an iffy interpretation for me

I don't feel like God would just abandon someone because they doubted he'd be with them. That's kind of petty.

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

Where in judges?

Not in judges... Joshua... Joshua 17:18: “But the mountain country shall be yours. Although it is wooded, you shall cut it down, and its farthest extent shall be yours; for you shall drive out the Canaanites, though they have iron chariots and are strong.”


Gods promise.

You claimed a "sin of unbelief" - this verse makes no mention of such unbelief.

I ask again, where is this "sin of unbelief"?

Kindest regards,

James

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

It's not specifically mentioned in that verse.

God promises.. You shall drive out the Canaanites even though they have chariots of iron.
Judah goes to fight and is like we can't beat them they got chariots of iron.

They don't believe Gods promise.

It's a logical conclusion.

It's not a "logical conclusion" - it's your misrepresentation/misinterpretation: there is no "sin of unbelief" mentioned in Judges or any OT book preceding it.

This is the point I've being making.

You are re-interpreting what Judges 1:19 means to fit your own belief.

According to Judges 1:19, the fact is God was with Judah and they defeated the hill-dwellers - God was still with Judah, yet they were unable to defeat the valley-dwellers.

Either God was not powerful enough to enable Judah to defeat the valley-dwellers or, as God made no difference to whether they won or lost, God is irrelevant, thus - for all intents and purposes - might as well be non-existent.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[Mr_Wilford]

The defeat of Flood Geology by Flood Geology:

http://www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/Flood%20geology.pdf

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

While I'm not too familiar with most of your reasons, bernhard, what would dinosaurs living with humans do for YEC? That doesn't indicate a young earth at all.

Dinosaurs do live with humans. Birds are dinosaurs in the same way humans are apes (something our creationist already accepts).

In addition, our creationist just listed a few of Talk.Origins "Index to Creationist Claims" greatest hits.

 

[Mr_Wilford]

While I'm not too familiar with most of your reasons, bernhard, what would dinosaurs living with humans do for YEC? That doesn't indicate a young earth at all.

Dinosaurs do live with humans. Birds are dinosaurs in the same way humans are apes (something our creationist already accepts).

In addition, our creationist just listed a few of Talk.Origins "Index to Creationist Claims" greatest hits.

:lol:

Correction: What would non-avian dinosaurs living with humans do to support YEC?

 

[Mr_Wilford]

Confirmation in science is found in some of the following:
1. Sea salt concentrations.
2. Mud on sea floor amounts
3. The rapid burial of animals to fossilize. (Flood)
4 the young human history.. Ancient civilizations were young.
5 magnetic field of earth
6 evidence of dinosaurs living with humans.


Etc etc...

1. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD221_1.html

2. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD220.html

3. Not all fossils form rapidly, most trace fossils need calm, gentle conditions to form. In fact, trace fossils disprove a global flood entirely. So do ice cores and genetics:

Trace fossils: http://paleo.cc/ce/tracefos.htm

Ice cores: http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2003/PSCF12-03Seely.pdf

Genetics: http://paleo.cc/ce/ark-gene.htm

4. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH134.html

5. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD701.html

6. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH710.html

Are we done?

 

[Mr_Wilford]

Don't accept my interpretation not my problem.

It is all over the commentaries that Judah sinned therefore They abandoned God.

The sin was unbelief as I pointed out. God made promise ... They did not believe ... And result could not drive out the iron chariots.

To then claim God could not defeat the chariots when later on in judges God confused the 900 chariot army of Jabin shows your interpretation to be bias driven( to prove God is not omnipotent) when the scripture clearly reveals... God did defeat the iron chariots. So the problem? Unbelief

Just like when they were standing before the promised land and the 10 spies came back and said we can't defeat these giants. God promised they would.. They did not believe.. The punishment ? 40 year banishment.

The sin was unbelief... You can take that to the bank.

Rebuttal to that is pointless.

Was this directed towards me? If so I have no bias to show God isn't omnipotent

It'd really help if you figured out how to use the quote function

 

[Dustnite]

That would require reading directions, which Bernie is incapable of doing...

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

Don't accept my interpretation not my problem.

As I said, it's your interpretation.

It is all over the commentaries that Judah sinned therefore They abandoned God.

The sin was unbelief as I pointed out. God made promise ... They did not believe ... And result could not drive out the iron chariots.

Again, cite the bible verses where this "sin" occurred and where God actually claims/is claimed to "punish" this alleged "sin".

Cite the Commentaries where this is explained.

To then claim God could not defeat the chariots when later on in judges God confused the 900 chariot army of Jabin shows your interpretation to be bias driven( to prove God is not omnipotent) when the scripture clearly reveals... God did defeat the iron chariots. So the problem? Unbelief

Again, your interpretation.

I refer you to Judges 1:21:

21 The Benjamites, however, did not drive out the Jebusites, who were living in Jerusalem; to this day the Jebusites live there with the Benjamites.

And Judges 1:27-36:

this day.

27 But Manasseh did not drive out the people of Beth Shan or Taanach or Dor or Ibleam or Megiddo and their surrounding settlements, for the Canaanites were determined to live in that land. 28 When Israel became strong, they pressed the Canaanites into forced labor but never drove them out completely. 29 Nor did Ephraim drive out the Canaanites living in Gezer, but the Canaanites continued to live there among them. 30 Neither did Zebulun drive out the Canaanites living in Kitron or Nahalol, so these Canaanites lived among them, but Zebulun did subject them to forced labor. 31 Nor did Asher drive out those living in Akko or Sidon or Ahlab or Akzib or Helbah or Aphek or Rehob. 32 The Asherites lived among the Canaanite inhabitants of the land because they did not drive them out. 33 Neither did Naphtali drive out those living in Beth Shemesh or Beth Anath; but the Naphtalites too lived among the Canaanite inhabitants of the land, and those living in Beth Shemesh and Beth Anath became forced laborers for them. 34 The Amorites confined the Danites to the hill country, not allowing them to come down into the plain. 35 And the Amorites were determined also to hold out in Mount Heres, Aijalon and Shaalbim, but when the power of the tribes of Joseph increased, they too were pressed into forced labor. 36 The boundary of the Amorites was from Scorpion Pass to Sela and beyond.

Note how the mere fact that the various defenders were "determined to live/hold out" was sufficient to defeat the Israelites - despite God being "with them".

Most significantly I refer you to verses 28 and 35, where it's clear that it's only after "Israel became strong" and "the power of the tribes of Joseph increased", respectively, that the Canaanites and Amorites, respectively, were subjugated.

In other words, when their numbers grew - because this is what tribalism is all about: a numbers game.

The Israelites had a successful strategy: kill all the males and females who'd "known men" - keep the virgin females as breeding stock to increase the tribe, particularly males for defending what they had and/or taking what others had.

This has nothing to do with a actual God - Yahweh - just a post hoc rationalisation as to why they were successful.

Just like when they were standing before the promised land and the 10 spies came back and said we can't defeat these giants. God promised they would.. They did not believe.. The punishment ? 40 year banishment.

The number of spies was not ten but twelve - one each for the ancestral tribes.

If you read Numbers, you'll see that Yahweh doesn't seem to know any more than people - He asks how long will the Israelites question and grumble against Him - he should know, if He's omniscient! Even more, his changeable moods do not denote someone who knows that everything will turn out alright in the end. As a result, he is also not as benevolent as one would expect. And His inability to sway the Israelites - as witnessed by their constant questioning, grumbling, rebellion, etc - shows that He's not omnipotent either.

The sin was unbelief... You can take that to the bank.

Rebuttal to that is pointless.

In this case, it was due to their lack of faith - including everything that had happened since leaving Egypt.

This does not change the fact that your earlier claim is not supported by any bible verses or Commentaries - it's just your interpretation.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

You gave a number of supposed evidences for YEC in your original post, others have already pointed out that these have been debunked and cited linked articles.

I also linked articles which are evidence for a old Earth.

You haven't responded to any of those.

When you have, we'll continue.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[malicious_bloke]

How can evolution be true? I mean evolution says we come from rocks that got splashed by water.

But we're mostly carbon...water is hydrogen and oxygen, and rocks are mostly silicon...they don't have any carbon in them!

Clear proof that an intelligent, carbon-infusing deity (who naturally sacrificed his son-self for us and loves you enough to create an eternal torture chamber for you in case you don't love him back) must have created everything sometime in recorded history.

CHECKMATE ATHEISTS!