Evidence for/against YEC

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

This is for anyone to discuss YEC - particularly for Bernhard Visscher to provide evidence for his belief in YEC.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[Mr_Wilford]

Greetings,

This is for anyone to discuss YEC - particularly for Bernhard Visscher to provide evidence for his belief in YEC.

Kindest regards,

James

For: None

Against: Everything

/thread

 

[Dustnite]

I want to provide my evidence for a flat earth, can I do that here?

 

[Dustnite]

I believe the earth is young roughly 6000 years I don't even buy into the 10000 years. It's pretty much 6000 years.

What does the Bible say about the earth being 6000 years old. Your evidence please.

 

[Mr_Wilford]

Evidence for earth is young bible is true therefore age is true therefore young earth. I claim all other dating methods are based on assumptions and that destroys any knowledge claim of old earth.

Evidence there is a God is based on simple premises

p1 out of nothing nothing comes
P2 the universe came into being
P3 the universe did not come from nothing
Therefore there is that which is eternal.

That eternal is defined as God. Since God exists there is a creator. The creator is Him who is described in the bible. Referring to the dates and times in the bible we arrive at young earth.

When would you date a global flood then? Around 4000 or so years ago?

 

[Dustnite]

Evidence for earth is young bible is true therefore age is true therefore young earth. I claim all other dating methods are based on assumptions and that destroys any knowledge claim of old earth.

[sarcasm]The evidence for a young earth is because of the bible. The bible is true because the bible is true because the bible is true... I don't know how radiometric dating works (surprise)[/sarcasm]

Evidence there is a God is based on simple premises

p1 out of nothing nothing comes
P2 the universe came into being
P3 the universe did not come from nothing
Therefore there is that which is eternal.

Wow you even fucked up WLC's argument. I didn't think it was possible to make it look even more illogical. P1 is False (since it cannot be true in all cases, time doesnt exist before the big bang and you have no idea what happened before the big bang), therefore your argument is unsound. Even if you could get Kalam right it's still a bad argument since one or more of the premises are false.

That eternal is defined as God. Since God exists there is a creator. The creator is Him who is described in the bible. Referring to the dates and times in the bible we arrive at young earth.

Special Pleading. You even went as far as invoking the Christian God, my you really are bad at this Bernie...

Please list all the dates and times in the bible that confer a 6000 year old Earth, I'm pretty sure you are going to get this wrong too..

 

[Mr_Wilford]

Evidence for earth is young bible is true therefore age is true therefore young earth. I claim all other dating methods are based on assumptions and that destroys any knowledge claim of old earth.

[sarcasm]The evidence for a young earth is because of the bible. The bible is true because the bible is true because the bible is true... I don't know how radiometric dating works (surprise)[/sarcasm]

Evidence there is a God is based on simple premises

p1 out of nothing nothing comes
P2 the universe came into being
P3 the universe did not come from nothing
Therefore there is that which is eternal.

Wow you even fucked up WLC's argument. I didn't think it was possible to make it look even more illogical. P1 is False (since it cannot be true in all cases, time doesnt exist before the big bang), therefore your argument is unsound. Even if you could get Kalam right it's still a bad argument since one or more of the premises are false.

That eternal is defined as God. Since God exists there is a creator. The creator is Him who is described in the bible. Referring to the dates and times in the bible we arrive at young earth.

Special Pleading. You even went as far as invoking the Christian God, my you really are bad at this Bernie...

Please list all the dates and times in the bible that confer a 6000 year old Earth, I'm pretty sure you are going to get this wrong too..

Yeah see this is why I don't argue any of the cosmological arguments. With me I leave it at "I believe in God, can't tell you why, I just feel like that's correct, though I doubt I could give you much evidence for it. If you don't believe, cool cool."

 

[Mr_Wilford]

This is intresting:

http://metro.co.uk/2015/04/29/this-lump-of-rock-disproves-the-whole-noahs-ark-myth-instantly-5173557/

Are we done here?

 

[Dustnite]

This is intresting:

http://metro.co.uk/2015/04/29/this-lump-of-rock-disproves-the-whole-noahs-ark-myth-instantly-5173557/

Are we done here?

[sarcasm]That rock was put there by Satan to trick the non believers. Radiometric dating is false! C14 DATING DOESNT WORK![/sarcasm]

 

[Mr_Wilford]

This is intresting:

http://metro.co.uk/2015/04/29/this-lump-of-rock-disproves-the-whole-noahs-ark-myth-instantly-5173557/

Are we done here?

[sarcasm]That rock was put there by Satan to trick the non believers. Radiometric dating is false! C14 DATING DOESNT WORK![/sarcasm]

Right, sorry, what was I thinking?

Carry on

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

Wikipedia[/url]"]Dendrochronology

...

Currently, the maximum for fully anchored chronologies is a little over 11,000 years from present.[1]

We are done here.

 

[Master_Ghost_Knight]

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

well for the beginning I'm just going to respond to dragan glas.

I don't know how many piranhas will come out of the woodwork but I probably won't be able to respond to the horde of questions that will come if it's anything like my other threads

So I will begin by answering only dragan glas.

I'll see where that takes me.

I am a YEC yes

I believe in creation. God created all.

I believe the earth is young roughly 6000 years I don't even buy into the 10000 years. It's pretty much 6000 years.

Why do you believe the Earth - and, presumably, the Cosmos - is ~6000 years old?

What evidence do you have for this belief?

Kindest regards,

James

 

[Rando]

Okay, let me make a drive by comment Bernie will no doubt ignore...

First off, you do NOT have a complete copy of the original bible, in it's original language. The King James or New Translation, or whatever version you think is legit is not the complete edition of the bible in it's original language, so your just assuming that it's valid, but it's still worse than that. You don't even have God's actual words. You have a translation of a translation of the verbal history of an ancient group of nomadic people, so you don't even have eye witness statements. And even if you assume, damn, there's that word again, that it's the accurate text it is still the second hand word of people who supposedly heard it from God, that's hearsay and inadmissible in court, so I will not accept something that even a court of law would reject.

Next, some possible "evidences" that Bernie might use, and why they are not evidence to me...

Biblical Prophecy Crap:

"well, you see this untestable book I have, says some stuff will happen, that a later version says did happen, so, I'm right."
My Response: Circular logic works because circular logic works.... Or what about the prophecies of other religions are they accurate? Their holy books talk about them too, and they're just as much hearsay as the bible, so why don't they count?

Bernie's response: "Well my religion says their religion is wrong, so there...

And back down the rabbit hole we go, no evidence, just more fallacy...

Emotional Crap:

"Well, I feel it in my heart so I know it's real,"

And that's fine, for Bernie, I can't feel his emotions or tell if they're accurate, so how can I confirm your feelings. Bernie felt it in church or when he was desperate so that makes it God. Again, You're just assuming that that was god string your heart, I say you were just feeling gas. So, can you demonstrate the accuracy of your feelings? Can you hook yourself to a machine and demonstrate that it is truly an outside source giving you these feelings, or is it all just assumption... Does the fact I spent eleven years going to an Evangelical church and feeling nothing prove God doesn't exist? No? So, why should I accept your feelings?

Bernie's response: "Well, I feel it in my heart so I know it's true..."

And back down the rabbit hole we go, no evidence, just more fallacy...

"Well, I was a crackhead, alcoholic, or prostitute, and I prayed and Jesus made me better."

Again, how do I know that's true? I could just as easily add Mohammad, Buddha, Ahura Mazda, Satan, Thor, or one of a thousand other gods, at the end of that sentence and get the same conversion story of any other religion.

Bernie's response: "Well my religion says their religion is wrong so there..."

And back down the rabbit hole we go, no evidence, just more fallacy...

Popularity Crap:

"There are millions of Christians...
Christianity has been around for, I'm assuming, thousands of years...
There are millions of bibles printed every year..."

My response: "So? I could just as easily say that about any other religion on the planet."

Bernie's response: "Well my religion says their religion is wrong so there..."

And back down the rabbit hole we go, no evidence, just more fallacy...


The William Lane Craig "And therefore the Christian God is real" argument Crap:

Ontological
Objective Moral Values
First Cause
Kalam

They all have the same assumption at the core "God exists, therefore God exists" They all end the same way "and therefore the Christian God is real." Craig never gets beyond this core assumption and NEVER explains how it's his god and only his god that can do these things, whether it's existing without cause, being the source of morality, or not having a beginning. Even if you could argue about how you know it's your god, it could just as easily be used by another religion. And we know how this story ends....

Bernie's response: "Well my religion says their religion is wrong so there..."

And back down the rabbit hole we go, no evidence, just more fallacy...



Every time we ask for verifiable evidence we get the same thing, Craig's circular arguments, the Dishonesty Institute's playbook, the AIG's playbook or emotional nonsense, you know what we NEVER get: actual verifiable evidence. Show me your God creating something under laboratory conditions. Show me a preacher that can regrow lost limbs, over and over again, even in the faces of medical experts. Pray for your God to demonstrate his existence by taking on a flesh and blood body and submitting himself for testing. Do any one of those, and I'll become a believer right now, but you won't, cause you can't, and you even have an excuse for that "but if god demonstrates himself, you won't need faith anymore!" To which I'll respond...

So, what, no evidence, just more fallacy...

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

Where does the bible say that the Earth is only 6000 years old?

Do you believe that the bible is literally the inerrant word of God?

Do you believe that God is:

a) omnipotent;
b) omniscient;
c) omnibenevolent;
d) omnipresent;

Are there contradictions in the bible - particularly that would contradict the above properties of God?

Why do I believe earth is 6000 years and created. (YEC)

A) God exists
B) earth is young

God exists

A) there is that which is eternal

In revelation (1:17) Jesus says I am the first and the last... Claiming eternality

Therefore the God in the bible is the eternal

Iit is written in the bible " through Him (Jesus) were all things made"

Therefore the eternal is the Creator of this universe.

That explains why I am a creationist.

This is merely a statement of subjective belief - this does not provide objective evidence for any intentional creator-entity.

Do you have any objective evidence for such?

B) Earth is young

There are many I can choose from.

1) biblical dates and times arrives at 6000 years... So 6000 is biblically supported

Again, this is not objective evidence for a young Earth.

Ussher's chronology is simply false.

Even without this problem, the bible as it appears today does not include the original books, which literally numbered in the hundreds. How much time has been left out?

I believe God Himself was the only one there at creation of universe, the only one Who knows age of universe, earth.

Other than your belief, what evidence do you have for this claim?

Therefore since I believe the bible was written by those who are Spirtualy impressed by the One who was there... And the biblical interpretation is 6000 years... I believe it is 6000 years

Again, what evidence do you have for this claim?

Confirmation in science is found in some of the following:
1. Sea salt concentrations
2. Mud on sea floor amounts
3. The rapid burial of animals to fossilize. (Flood)
4 the young human history.. Ancient civilizations were young.
5 magnetic field of earth
6 evidence of dinosaurs living with humans.

Etc etc...

None of what you claim to be in support of your belief actually supports your belief in a young Earth and Cosmos.

I doubt that you accept radiometric dating methods that show the Earth/Cosmos are old - even so, there are non-radiometric dating methods that show the Earth and Cosmos are old.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[Mr_Wilford]

I've got a paper on the greenland ice cores that date the earth back to at least 100,000 years old. It also debunks creationist claims like "The lost Squadron was buried under a lot of layers of ice"

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2003/PSCF12-03Seely.pdf

The ice core also has volcanic ash that comes from Mount Toba, and dates to 74,000 years. That matches nicely with the bottleneck in our DNA, which is also about 74,000 years. Cross-confirmation shows both are valid.

 

[Mr_Wilford]

While I'm not too familiar with most of your reasons, bernhard, what would dinosaurs living with humans do for YEC? That doesn't indicate a young earth at all.

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

This is normal for a discussion, Bernhard. If you read through any of the discussions here, you'll see that the back-and-forths can be quite long.

I asked the two sets of questions because, firstly, I need to know what you actually believe, and second, I'm clarifying what actual evidence you have for your beliefs.

Kindest regards.

James

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

Where does the bible say that the Earth is only 6000 years old?

Do you believe that the bible is literally the inerrant word of God?

Do you believe that God is:

a) omnipotent;
b) omniscient;
c) omnibenevolent;
d) omnipresent;

Are there contradictions in the bible - particularly that would contradict the above properties of God?


Question 1 the bible does not specifically say 6000 years but based on lineages found in bible and the ages of the patriarchs, descendents of Noah, etc, one arrives at 6000 years. So in such a format does the bible claim 6k years.

Question 2 no. I already said Spiritually impressed people. God inspired the prophets. Not God's literal word...
Question 3 no, there are no contradictions in the bible. I agree there are mistakes, But they are not theological mistakes regarding the character of God. they are either translational,( eg Romans 9:13), Jacobs blessing, or example in one spot in bible it says 400 horses and another spot it says 4000 of by a factor of ten does not make me think a theological problem since we're dealing with a few horses. Also I don't believe it is the Word of God. I believe the Word of God is Jesus.

I asked for contradictions in relation to the specific characteristics because of Judges 1:19:

Judges 1:19[/url]"]And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

This means that men with chariots of iron are, at least, as powerful as an omnipotent God.

What does that mean for your faith?

Kindest regards,

James

 

[Mr_Wilford]

Judges 1:19[/url]"]And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

Oh, see, that was God telling Judah to upgrade his weaponry!

But in all honesty I've never seen that verse before. Interesting.