Embarassing things like masturbation.

[Andiferous]

Putting aside our bashfulness and embarrassment, (and in particular my own...) , why and for what purpose do theological doctrines on masturbation (and I can't fail to mention menstruation) serve? (I'll only be quoting one informational site about Jewish law, as an example. Judaism is pretty much the basis of Catholicism and Christianity, as far as I'm concerned.)

I wonder if it's commonly known that within this scripture masturbation between men and women are not equal. Since men are wasting 'the seed' and women are not, there is no explicit reference (to my knowledge) against women masturbating. So really, There's not a lot of reasoning prohibiting women from doing the deed, and Jewish law (at least) says little against masturbating women.

Jewish law clearly prohibits male masturbation. This law is derived from the story of Onan (Gen. 38:8-10), who practiced coitus interruptus as a means of birth control to avoid fathering a child for his deceased brother. G-d killed Onan for this sin. Although Onan's act was not truly masturbation, Jewish law takes a very broad view of the acts prohibited by this passage, and forbids any act of ha-sh'cha'tat zerah (destruction of the seed), that is, ejaculation outside of the vagina. In fact, the prohibition is so strict that one passage in the Talmud states, "in the case of a man, the hand that reaches below the navel should be chopped off." (Niddah 13a)

So there's nothing really scripted against female masturbation in the scripture (aside from the 'impure thoughts' argument.)

Women, on the other hand, are apparently cursed by monthly menstruation, (be it beyond their control), in which historical cultures required they be locked away and not touched for fear of cursing others. I guess they're wasting the egg.

One of the most mysterious areas of Jewish sexual practices is the law of niddah, separation of husband and wife during the woman's menstrual period. These laws are also known as taharat ha-mishpachah, family purity. Few people outside of the Orthodox community are even aware that these laws exist, which is unfortunate, because these laws provide many undeniable benefits. The laws of niddah are not deliberately kept secret; they are simply unknown because most non-Orthodox Jews do not continue their religious education beyond bar mitzvah, and these laws address subjects that are not really suitable for discussion with children under the age of 13.

According to the Torah, a man is forbidden from having sexual intercourse with a niddah, that is, a menstruating woman. This is part of the extensive laws of ritual purity described in the Torah. At one time, a large portion of Jewish law revolved around questions of ritual purity and impurity. The law of niddah is the only law of ritual purity that continues to be observed today; all of the other laws applied only when the Temple was in existence, but are not applicable today.

The time of separation begins at the first sign of blood and ends in the evening of the woman's seventh "clean day." This separation lasts a minimum of 12 days. The Torah prohibits only sexual intercourse, but the rabbis broadened this prohibition, maintaining that a man may not even touch his wife or sleep in the same bed as her during this time. Weddings must be scheduled carefully, so that the woman is not in a state of niddah on her wedding night.

I can't get my head around the menstruation thing, but I suspect the male masturbation thing has something to do with paternity and the importance of the 'seed'. I suppose with women, the equivalent can be seen within attitudes on the monthly 'curse' This is a new spin on the debate for me...

 

[Avatra1]

Brainwashing.

Especially in those religions who forbid it, and then makes you do penance in order to cleanse yourself of sin.

 

[Aught3]

A recipe for constant obsession. Take something normal, make it evil, and punish the inevitable. All the major religious rules are around food and sex, something that everyone will do and therefore fall short of the impossible standard.

By the way that story about Onan is actually about fucking your sister-in-law, his sin is avoiding sex with her. Kinky, but that's the Bible for you.

 

[Andiferous]

I agree in principle really, but I'm wondering if the fundamental problem with both menstruation and male masturbation within many texts stems from loss of an embryo, which takes us back to your abortion debate, Aught3.

I'm also really impressed you're that familiar with biblical texts given your non-religious background that supersedes my childhood bible reading. I didn't know that about Onan.

When I was much younger and very insensitive I used to joke to friends that in the first three months abortion was the equivalent of accidental fertalisation in the sewage system. A vulgar thing to consider I know, but it seems this concept could be related to possible theological paranoia.

And I suspect brainwashing is the culprit and the original reasoning is lost, too. What kind of reasoning for this is given nowadays?

 

[Laurens]

Masturbating is more fun than being at church.

Probably better for your health too.

Wanking > Christianity

 

[Andiferous]

Masturbating is more fun than being at church.

Probably better for your health too.

Wanking > Christianity

Well yeah, but only for the male species, apparently. Don't forget that wanking is yanking pending your pronunciation. And abuse of the one is entirely different between the sexes.

 

[Inferno]

Masturbating is more fun than being at church.

Probably better for your health too.

Wanking > Christianity

Well yeah, but only for the male species, apparently. Don't forget that wanking is yanking pending your pronunciation. And abuse of the one is entirely different between the sexes.

What is for the male species only? "More fun"? I think females have as much fun, but you tell us... (I'm not implying anything, I'm just saying I'm not a female...)
But I guess you mean benefits... Well, apparently there are some. So uh.... wank away?

 

[Andiferous]

Well, masturbation is permitted for the female species and prohibited for the males, according to scripture and testiment. The wank and yank thing I posted partly to appeal to British fun with puns and wordplay, and partly because I truly believe in the rhyming onomatopoeic etymological relationship between the two colloquialisms.

I've really tried not to discuss the benefits of masturbation for women, as it's evidently not a huge problem within doctrine, yet. Menstruation is a pain in the arse though.

But I did kind of intend this as a serious topic.

 

[Laurens]

But I did kind of intend this as a serious topic.

But its about people's private parts *giggles*

 

[Andiferous]

Very perceptive.

 

[Prolescum]

Menstruation is a pain in the arse though.

You're doing it wrong.

 

[Andiferous]

I suppose if taken literally. Why don't you give your opinion on the whole topic, Prolescum?

 

[Prolescum]

I suppose if taken literally.

Well, yeah.

Why don't you give your opinion on the whole topic, Prolescum?

Okay.

why and for what purpose do theological doctrines on masturbation (and I can't fail to mention menstruation) serve?

men are wasting 'the seed'

Seed spilling

Women [...] are apparently cursed by monthly menstruation

Leviticus

My opinion on the religious view of masturbation and menstruation is the same as my perspective on its other absurd facets; it's daft.
The way I see masturbation is from above. Actually, it serves two purposes; gratification and making teenagers uncomfortable (by discussing it openly) and therefore more likely to piss off 'til dinner.
My take on menstruation is that it's a bodily function like any other, albeit one I'll never experience. It's not embarrassing to me, and I'm not disgusted by it. I have three sisters, though.
I wouldn't combine the results of masturbation and menstruation.

 

[Andiferous]

Those are great quotes.

Daft or not, I'll try to reiterate that I perceived male masturbation and female menstruation as linked because female menstruation indicated the death of the egg, and male masturbation the spilling of the spermy things, and the two only went to waste for lack of an embryo. It seems possible to me that these indicate the seedlings of an abortion argument.

If you can find more testament forbidding masturbation among women in sacred text, I really would be curious to hear. Or likewise, isolation arguments for male PMS.

 

[Prolescum]

Those are great quotes.

Daft or not, I'll try to reiterate that I perceived male masturbation and female menstruation as linked because female menstruation indicated the death of the egg, and male masturbation the spilling of the spermy things, and the two only went to waste for lack of an embryo. It seems possible to me that these indicate the seedlings of an abortion argument.

I suppose some people could use those verses to bolster their abortion argument, but the seeds of one? I don't really buy that.

If you can find more testament forbidding masturbation among women in sacred text, I really would be curious to hear. Or likewise, isolation arguments for male PMS.

I think sex aids (and therefore, some sort of masturbation) were commonplace throughout history (and pre-history), so I don't know that we'll find much outside of the still-active religions.

 

[Thomas Doubting]

I see nothing wrong about masturbation. IF done properly and preferably privately, and not as much as to bring problems in the daily life (say, torn muscles, missed appointments, addiction as bad as to lock oneself up and do it all day etc)
They can quote their fairy tales all theit want, but I still didn't hear a single explanation about wet dreams.. where males have no influence on the spilt seed and what purpose that might have or whether or not it is a sin in the eyes of their imaginary friend.

 

[Welshidiot]

In my opinion the edicts of the Old Testament sound like a list of someone's personal hang-ups, or guides on how to perform certain human functions, and I'm inclined to believe they are.

I include in that all the restrictions about every other aspect of life as well, but particularly the ones about food.
The kosher laws in essence seem to be a form of food hygiene protocol,....many of the kosher restrictions on meat are actually standard parts of good butchery practice.

I tend to believe that the origin of the "sexual" rules is something similar.
So when I hear the rules about masturbation it just sounds like: "Stop playing with yourself, you dirty little boy!"
And where the rules around menstruation are concerned I hear: "Eeeeewwwww! Gross!"

IMO that's what's at the root of most of those religious rules. Some man or woman with hang-ups writing down a list of things they don't like, or even a helpful guide on how to store meat in a hot climate, and a few generations later their descendants claiming that grandma's/grandpa's diary is actually the word of god.

 

[Andiferous]

Those are great quotes.

Daft or not, I'll try to reiterate that I perceived male masturbation and female menstruation as linked because female menstruation indicated the death of the egg, and male masturbation the spilling of the spermy things, and the two only went to waste for lack of an embryo. It seems possible to me that these indicate the seedlings of an abortion argument.

I suppose some people could use those verses to bolster their abortion argument, but the seeds of one? I don't really buy that.

If you can find more testament forbidding masturbation among women in sacred text, I really would be curious to hear. Or likewise, isolation arguments for male PMS.

I think sex aids (and therefore, some sort of masturbation) were commonplace throughout history (and pre-history), so I don't know that we'll find much outside of the still-active religions.

Contraception is a good argument, and I do recall that even Romans used condoms made of sheep intestines and other animal matter. Except you aren't arguing against me, but about the hypocrisy of the prevailing theology and the hypocrisy of the public who bought into it at the time. Of course people had illicit sex centuries ago and tried out ways to prevent pregnancy and disease, but I'm not sure societal expectations have ever really met the public reality.

Let's say I'm musing on the relationship between the two without making a decision. Still, I find it an attractive idea to ponder.

I see nothing wrong about masturbation. IF done properly and preferably privately, and not as much as to bring problems in the daily life (say, torn muscles, missed appointments, addiction as bad as to lock oneself up and do it all day etc)
They can quote their fairy tales all theit want, but I still didn't hear a single explanation about wet dreams.. where males have no influence on the spilt seed and what purpose that might have or whether or not it is a sin in the eyes of their imaginary friend.

Yeah, humans are inherently sexual beings, and no indoctrination can change that.

 

[Andiferous]

In my opinion the edicts of the Old Testament sound like a list of someone's personal hang-ups, or guides on how to perform certain human functions, and I'm inclined to believe they are.

I include in that all the restrictions about every other aspect of life as well, but particularly the ones about food.
The kosher laws in essence seem to be a form of food hygiene protocol,....many of the kosher restrictions on meat are actually standard parts of good butchery practice.

I tend to believe that the origin of the "sexual" rules is something similar.
So when I hear the rules about masturbation it just sounds like: "Stop playing with yourself, you dirty little boy!"
And where the rules around menstruation are concerned I hear: "Eeeeewwwww! Gross!"

IMO that's what's at the root of most of those religious rules. Some man or woman with hang-ups writing down a list of things they don't like, or even a helpful guide on how to store meat in a hot climate, and a few generations later their descendants claiming that grandma's/grandpa's diary is actually the word of god.

Raised Catholic, I can't see those hang-ups very much changed over the years, except to mention that many of the sexual laws within Jewish law convenient to women (that for instance, the woman should decide when to have sex) were dropped over the centuries. And we still talk about 'the curse.'

 

[Prolescum]

Contraception is a good argument, and I do recall that even Romans used condoms made of sheep intestines and other animal matter. Except you aren't arguing against me, but about the hypocrisy of the prevailing theology and the hypocrisy of the public who bought into it at the time. Of course people had illicit sex centuries ago and tried out ways to prevent pregnancy and disease, but I'm not sure societal expectations have ever really met the public reality.

Eh? I'm not talking about contraception, I was talking about strap-ons in the Kama Sutra, smooth-stone phalluses from neolithic Britain, that sort of thing.