Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racism?

[Laurens]

I don't particularly involve myself with any kind of atheist community other than on here.

However I have noticed that since I stopped subscribing to both the Amazing Atheist and Thunderf00t they have both gone balls to the wall anti-feminist. Thunderf00t seems to have developed a drooling obsession with Anita Sarkesian (apologies if I spelled that wrong) and seems to have lost all of his remaining reasoning skills. The Amazing Atheist seems to have gone down that root too, with numerous anti feminist rants. I also saw a blog post calling out TJ for racism.

Given that these two are rather popular among atheists, a lot of whom don't seem to have a problem with their tirades against SJWs. Do you think the atheist movement has a problem with misogyny and racism?

I know thunderf00t and the Amazing Atheist are not representative of atheism, but they do represent a problem within the movement in my opinion.

 

[Duvelthehobbit666]

Re: Does Atheism have a problem with Misogyny/Racism?

No. Atheism is nothing more than a disbelief in god. Individuals can either be racist or misogynistic. They can get a following and the following can be these things. When you mention people like TF and TJ, I think you can call them closer to the freethinkers community. Individuals within this group can be racist which can give the rest of the community a bad name. Because they are a vocal minority I would say that the freethinkers group is not racist/misogynistic. I would personally rephrase your original statement to "Does the freethinker group have a problem with racism or misogyny". Atheism is too broad imo to give such labels.

 

[Laurens]

Re: Does Atheism have a problem with Misogyny/Racism?

No. Atheism is nothing more than a disbelief in god. Individuals can either be racist or misogynistic. They can get a following and the following can be these things. When you mention people like TF and TJ, I think you can call them closer to the freethinkers community. Individuals within this group can be racist which can give the rest of the community a bad name. Because they are a vocal minority I would say that the freethinkers group is not racist/misogynistic. I would personally rephrase your original statement to "Does the freethinker group have a problem with racism or misogyny". Atheism is too broad imo to give such labels.

My sentiment would be that a young woman for instance, who might be doubting the beliefs that she was bought up in may come across people like TF and TJ and feel like she does not have a place in the atheist movement. She might be an atheist, but not wish to partake in the atheist movement because of people like TF who want atheist conventions to abandon rules on sexual harassment etc.

I think perhaps I should rephrase it to 'the atheist movement' to be more clear, but in my opinion this is a problem for the atheist movement. Both TF and TJ made names for themselves as part of the atheist phenomena, whether we like that or not.

EDIT: If you are browsing youtube, I would posit that you're more likely to come across TF and TJ when searching for atheism related topics than for free thinking. That would be my point.

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

If there is such a thing as "movement atheist" I sure would hope that The Amazing Atheist is not the face of it.

I think there is a problem in that popular atheist seem to have such backward views on social issues. However, like I said, what movement is The Amazing Atheist or thunderf00t fronting? There are organizations such as The Freedom From Religion Foundation and The Atheist Community of Austin that are actually apart of "movement atheist" and are very progressive. Even the blog you linked to is apart of a very progressive blogging network.

I honestly think this has a lot more to do with squeaking wheels getting far to much oil. The Amazing Atheist is just loud, thus get attention. However, the real movement (if there is one) has very little to do with him and his ilk and makes are less noise.

 

[Laurens]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

If there is such a thing as "movement atheist" I sure would hope that The Amazing Atheist is not the face of it.

I think there is a problem in that popular atheist seem to have such backward views on social issues. However, like I said, what movement is The Amazing Atheist or thunderf00t fronting? There are organizations such as The Freedom From Religion Foundation and The Atheist Community of Austin that are actually apart of "movement atheist" and are very progressive. Even the blog you linked to is apart of a very progressive blogging network.

I honestly think this has a lot more to do with squeaking wheels getting far to much oil. The Amazing Atheist is just loud, thus get attention. However, the real movement (if there is one) has very little to do with him and his ilk and makes are less noise.

I see what you are saying.

TF and TJ are not at the front of any particular movement, but they are representative of a demographic within the movement. By which I mean they get multitudes of views on their videos and plenty of likes to boot.

I would love to think that they both are just loud anomalies, but I'm far from certain of that. Given that TJ has just under a million subscribers, and TF just over half a million I would say that this does present an issue even if only half of their respective audiences agree with them or still watch their videos or whatnot. TJ has way way more subscribers than the Atheist Experience for example, whom I would say present a more progressive front of atheism. I know subscriber count is a shoddy method for analysing this, but I don't think even 500,000 (roughly half of his subscribers) people agreeing with TJ is just noise.

 

[Laurens]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

If I were to compare TJ's subscriber base with perhaps more progressives on YouTube, here is what you find

The Amazing Atheist - 921,422
Thunderf00t - 602,274

Matt Dillahunty - 56,560
The Thinking Atheist - 221,252
AronRa - 139,031

I would say the latter trio are more progressive, but perhaps there are bigger channels that represent that view I'm not sure. If we take the generous assumption that half of the subscribing audience of TJ share his views, and the equally generous assumption that all of the Thinking Atheists subscribers subscribe to their views TJ still has a greater number of followers who subscribe to his views.

Now I'm not saying this necessarily is indicative of numbers in the wider world, but assuming that it is, I would say that there is an issue. Of course if my semi drunken arithmetic or logic has totally failed me I am open to refutation. However as it stands I would state that this represents a problem.

 

[Dustnite]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

On the other side of the coin, you have PZ Myers pushing whatever version of Atheism+ that exists now. I think the lesson here is beware those that try to push an ideology on you no matter the source.

Atheists only agree on one thing: The lack of belief in god(s). I see no reason to tack on anything else to that.

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

If I were to compare TJ's subscriber base with perhaps more progressives on YouTube, here is what you find

The Amazing Atheist - 921,422
Thunderf00t - 602,274

Matt Dillahunty - 56,560
The Thinking Atheist - 221,252
AronRa - 139,031

I would say the latter trio are more progressive, but perhaps there are bigger channels that represent that view I'm not sure. If we take the generous assumption that half of the subscribing audience of TJ share his views, and the equally generous assumption that all of the Thinking Atheists subscribers subscribe to their views TJ still has a greater number of followers who subscribe to his views.

Now I'm not saying this necessarily is indicative of numbers in the wider world, but assuming that it is, I would say that there is an issue. Of course if my semi drunken arithmetic or logic has totally failed me I am open to refutation. However as it stands I would state that this represents a problem.

Well, I have never thought atheists were smart for simply being correct about one question. Just like I never assumed a theist was dumb.

Beyond that, you are just looking at YouTube (with all the well known problems that already exists on that platform). Again I ask, what movement is The Amazing Atheist the face of? Yes, he is popular on YouTube, but does that equal to an "Amazing Atheist movement"? There are secular organizations out there, and they have progressive goals. Popular atheists are assholes. It would be nice if that were not the case, but what can you/we do?

 

[WarK]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

I'm not sure about TJ, I've only watched a few of his vids lately*, but I wouldn't call tf00t mysogynist or racist.

A lot of how tf00t is perceived has to do with the fact that he makes vids about radical feminists without making a clear distinction about it. That and he tends to talk (and probably think) in black or white kind of way. That is, there's either non-feminists or feminazis, nothing in between.

When tf00t used to talk about creationism and christianity it wasn't such a big problem. Only when he started dealing with Islam and feminism.

* among the vids I watched were the two in which he mocked buzzfeed "10 question to white people" or something like that vids. Again, I think a lot of how TJ and tf00t are perceived is due to them responding to some stupid shit like "black people can't be racist" or "femminist glacialogy"

 

[Laurens]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

Well, I have never thought atheists were smart for simply being correct about one question. Just like I never assumed a theist was dumb.

Beyond that, you are just looking at YouTube (with all the well known problems that already exists on that platform). Again I ask, what movement is The Amazing Atheist the face of? Yes, he is popular on YouTube, but does that equal to an "Amazing Atheist movement"? There are secular organizations out there, and they have progressive goals. Popular atheists are assholes. It would be nice if that were not the case, but what can you/we do?

The Amazing Atheist was certainly one of the first people I came across when I started watching atheism videos. Given his subscriber base, I'd imagine that is true for a lot of people. In that respect whether he actively wants to be, or whether he is to you and I, he is a face of atheism.

People will come across him, and people will be put off being involved with atheism because of him. The same is true for perhaps the larger faces of the movement. We have Richard Dawkins who famously did the whole women have it worse under Sharia law so quit complaining thing when Rebecca Watson basically just said "hey guys don't be creepy to women when you're alone in a confined space." He has also committed numerous other sexist blunders on Twitter. Then we have Sam Harris, who believes people who look Muslim should be profiled saying “There’s something about that critical posture that is to some degree intrinsically male and more attractive to guys than to women” and “The atheist variable just has this – it doesn’t obviously have this nurturing, coherence-building extra estrogen vibe that you would want by default if you wanted to attract as many women as men.” When called out on this he went even more sexist by putting women on a pedestal saying "I tend to respect women more than men" and going on about how feminists are determined to be offended. We also have Christopher Hitchens who famously wrote two articles about the trope that women aren't funny.

I know that the only real thing that unites atheists is a lack of belief in gods, but I do think it's detrimental to the cause of secularism to have people like that championing atheism. Why? Because it makes people feel excluded. Someone might see people telling them that they are incapable of being as funny as men, or that their gender makes them less critical and be totally put off getting involved.

 

[Visaki]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

(Please note that I have limited exposure to the subject and I'm giving my opinion based on that limited exposure)

By and far; no.

When talking about TJ and this latest racist allegation towards him I suggest that you take time to watch his apparently very racist video 20 Answers For Black People! to which that blog post was an answer to, and also TJs answer to that blog post Patheos Blogger Says I'm Racist!. Now I might not know how people in US define things or talk about racism, since I'm a Finn and I don't even pretend to understand the race problem in the US, but I didn't think the "20 answers For Black People!" was "proudly, ignorantly racist". A bit assholy maybe but as far as I've seen that's TJ's style.

As for TF yeah he has a gripe with the current style of so called third wave feminists or neofeminists, Anita Sarkesian in particular. Personally I'm not a fan of Sarkesian either, as it's been pretty much proved that she is a fraud with her video projects, promising things for money that she has no intention to deliver and using the feminist movement to fill her pockets. Not to mention her videogame vids are dishonest at best and outright lying at the worst. Not that others in the leading edge of that movement haven't got their moments of insanity. But the biggest reason TF seems to be an anti-feminist, or opposing the third wave feminism, is as I understand it that the 3rd wave (or it's most visible part) seems to be anti freedom of speech as far as going to the UN, Twitter and Google trying to get limits on who and how can criticize them. They complain being harassed in trivial ways (and yes, there is a lot of non-trivial harassment out there too) while making an organized effort for getting the guy that landed a probe on a comet fired because he wore a shirt with women in it.

So no, in the greater picture the "Atheist movement", whatever that is, has no great problem with racism or misogyny. Or rather is has since most in the "movement" have problem with hatred based on race and hatred towards women since they don't like it.

 

[Gnug215]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

Yes.


Why? Because while atheists, and/or the atheist movement (whatever that is) may not be more misogynistic/racist than others (I might even argue that on the whole, they'd be less of both), the label has been applied, and it seems to have stuck.

TF and TJ may not have been elected leaders of the movement, but nothing exists in a vacuum, and such is also the case of leadership of a movement, so for all practical purposes, they are "leaders".
I never considered either of them as particularly misogynist/racist, just... many other things. It seems the only way to be "openly atheist" is to be in opposition to religion somehow. Usually in a provocative, antagonistic way. TJ and TF seem to have taken their provocative, antagonistic ways of expressing themselves into every other aspect they might be commenting on.

Now it may look like somehow, my post has morphed into something that looks like a defense of TJ and TF, but it's not. They may be assholes in a 100 different ways, but I honestly think it would be accurate to call them either misogynist or racist.

As far as movements go, I really think a movement that is against the misuse of labels and terms is sorely needed these days.


Hey! Actually... let's start a movement tha is against labels!!!

So.... what should we call ourselves?

 

[Dustnite]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

Can we clarify this a little bit: Are we calling disagreement with current Buzzfeed/MTV/third wave feminist ideology misogyny/racism?

The biggest arguments I have seen come out of that arena are these:

• Systemic oppression of woman and minorities by the Patriarchy™
  
• Due process of the law should be suspended during rape cases.
  
• White cis-gendered males (and females) should not be in the discussion about race because of their privilege.

If we're saying that TF and TJ, whom I never elected to speak for me at least, are racist because they bring up counter arguments to stuff like the above then I'm going to disagree. I've heard both sides of the argument and I find merit on both sides, but I still don't think it's fair to label someone misogynist for questioning things. I think the whole "community splitting" thing is hyperbolic at best and it only exists because it's driving youtube/blog views.

 

[Visaki]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

Hey! Actually... let's start a movement tha is against labels!!!

So.... what should we call ourselves?

Alabelists? Nonlabeltarians? Antilabelteers?

@Dustnite: both TJ and TF have been very clear that although people are free to agree with them they represent themselves and only themselves. Though the fact that they are followed by more people than I will see in my lifetime does make them something like leaders since they have some real power behind their words because of that following. That is even if they don't want to be leaders or represent anyone but themselves.

 

[WarK]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

Hey! Actually... let's start a movement tha is against labels!!!

So.... what should we call ourselves?

Alabelists? Nonlabeltarians? Antilabelteers?

Left Leaning Agnostic Alebelist?

 

[Gnug215]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

Hey! Actually... let's start a movement tha is against labels!!!

So.... what should we call ourselves?

Alabelists? Nonlabeltarians? Antilabelteers?

Hmm, no, we're against labels, remember? So we can't name ourselves any of those names.

 

[Laurens]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

Can we clarify this a little bit: Are we calling disagreement with current Buzzfeed/MTV/third wave feminist ideology misogyny/racism?

The biggest arguments I have seen come out of that arena are these:

• Systemic oppression of woman and minorities by the Patriarchy™
  
• Due process of the law should be suspended during rape cases.
  
• White cis-gendered males (and females) should not be in the discussion about race because of their privilege.

If we're saying that TF and TJ, whom I never elected to speak for me at least, are racist because they bring up counter arguments to stuff like the above then I'm going to disagree. I've heard both sides of the argument and I find merit on both sides, but I still don't think it's fair to label someone misogynist for questioning things. I think the whole "community splitting" thing is hyperbolic at best and it only exists because it's driving youtube/blog views.

I should probably have been clear that TF so far as I am aware has not posted anything that can be construed as racist. Whether or not he is overtly misogynistic in his videos, he certainly enables people with those views with the content he puts out there. So far as I know he's never come out against the misogynists in his view base.

TJ on the other hand has said quite a lot of racist stuff. Basically perpetuating the stereotype that black people are criminal thugs and they should be pushed out of neighbourhoods to make them nicer for white people.

Nobody I've come across is saying due process of the law should be suspended during rape cases, or that people should be excluded from dialogue for their privilege. The first point you mentioned is true though, minorities and women are oppressed in society.

 

[WarK]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

TJ on the other hand has said quite a lot of racist stuff. Basically perpetuating the stereotype that black people are criminal thugs and they should be pushed out of neighbourhoods to make them nicer for white people.

When talking about TJ and this latest racist allegation towards him I suggest that you take time to watch his apparently very racist video 20 Answers For Black People! to which that blog post was an answer to, and also TJs answer to that blog post Patheos Blogger Says I'm Racist!. Now I might not know how people in US define things or talk about racism, since I'm a Finn and I don't even pretend to understand the race problem in the US, but I didn't think the "20 answers For Black People!" was "proudly, ignorantly racist". A bit assholy maybe but as far as I've seen that's TJ's style.

 

[Laurens]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

TJ on the other hand has said quite a lot of racist stuff. Basically perpetuating the stereotype that black people are criminal thugs and they should be pushed out of neighbourhoods to make them nicer for white people.

When talking about TJ and this latest racist allegation towards him I suggest that you take time to watch his apparently very racist video 20 Answers For Black People! to which that blog post was an answer to, and also TJs answer to that blog post Patheos Blogger Says I'm Racist!. Now I might not know how people in US define things or talk about racism, since I'm a Finn and I don't even pretend to understand the race problem in the US, but I didn't think the "20 answers For Black People!" was "proudly, ignorantly racist". A bit assholy maybe but as far as I've seen that's TJ's style.

Personally I don't think its down to TJ to say whether or not he was being racist.

A lot of really racist things are prefaced with the statement "I'm not racist but..."

When you depict black people as "thugs" who will "probably shoot" you, you might be a little bit racist.

 

[Duvelthehobbit666]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

If I were to compare TJ's subscriber base with perhaps more progressives on YouTube, here is what you find

The Amazing Atheist - 921,422
Thunderf00t - 602,274

Matt Dillahunty - 56,560
The Thinking Atheist - 221,252
AronRa - 139,031

I would say the latter trio are more progressive, but perhaps there are bigger channels that represent that view I'm not sure. If we take the generous assumption that half of the subscribing audience of TJ share his views, and the equally generous assumption that all of the Thinking Atheists subscribers subscribe to their views TJ still has a greater number of followers who subscribe to his views.

Now I'm not saying this necessarily is indicative of numbers in the wider world, but assuming that it is, I would say that there is an issue. Of course if my semi drunken arithmetic or logic has totally failed me I am open to refutation. However as it stands I would state that this represents a problem.

When comparing someone like TF with the rest of the big atheist channels, one thing you must remember is that he posts a lot of content which is quite separate from the freethinkers movement. I am still subscribed to him because of his chemistry content. Him dicking around with chemistry is still very interesting.