Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racism?

[WarK]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

Personally I don't think its down to TJ to say whether or not he was being racist.

A lot of really racist things are prefaced with the statement "I'm not racist but..."

When you depict black people as "thugs" who will "probably shoot" you, you might be a little bit racist.

He pointed out the stats. How can we talk about these things if you can't tell the facts? Should we just ignore crime committed by black people?

It seems to me we're drowning in political correctness.

Is she a racist too?


TJ criticised an insanely stupid vid (20 Answers to black people). The blog post at patheos is just rubbish. The blogger compared him to Ku Klux Klan. Seriously? I'm not even an American and I know the difference. The blogger must be living on moon or something.

 

[Visaki]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

Personally I don't think its down to TJ to say whether or not he was being racist.

A lot of really racist things are prefaced with the statement "I'm not racist but..."

When you depict black people as "thugs" who will "probably shoot" you, you might be a little bit racist.

I'm not saying it's down to TJ to say whether he is a racist. I amsaying that if you want to discuss if he is at least you should take a look at the actual things he is saying and not outright believe someone elses opinion about it.

 

[WarK]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

Seriously? Worse than Ku Klux Klan?


Wham am I missing?

 

[Gnug215]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

Can we clarify this a little bit: Are we calling disagreement with current Buzzfeed/MTV/third wave feminist ideology misogyny/racism?

I don't think "we" are doing that, no. But someone is. And for many, that seems to be reason enough.

But I think a deeper reason, one that probably has more people labeling atheists/the atheist movement as misogynistic/racist, is the... immaturity, insensitivity, vitriol, anger, focus, irrationality with which people like TJ and TF have argued against third wave feminism and, well, the SJW movement, I guess we can call it.

Aaand so the lines got drawn, and the sides got antagonized, and either side just seems to have amped up the attacks since, and now everyone hates each other's guts. In the end, you basically have have TJ and TF have ended up on the other side of the side that, at least in name, supposedly fights against misogyny and racism. So I guess it's kind of guilt by association for them, and then for the rest of the atheist movement, another case of guilt by association.

That's my understanding of things, at least...

It's a mess.

The biggest arguments I have seen come out of that arena are these:

• Systemic oppression of woman and minorities by the Patriarchy™
  
• Due process of the law should be suspended during rape cases.
  
• White cis-gendered males (and females) should not be in the discussion about race because of their privilege.

If we're saying that TF and TJ, whom I never elected to speak for me at least, are racist because they bring up counter arguments to stuff like the above then I'm going to disagree. I've heard both sides of the argument and I find merit on both sides, but I still don't think it's fair to label someone misogynist for questioning things. I think the whole "community splitting" thing is hyperbolic at best and it only exists because it's driving youtube/blog views.

I agree, there's a lot of hyperbole involved, and people fanning the flames with videos and blogs. And as always, a wildly complicated subject has become insanely simplified and divivded into only two sides, apparently.

It's a stupid mess.

 

[Nesslig20]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

I don't particularly involve myself with any kind of atheist community other than on here.

However I have noticed that since I stopped subscribing to both the Amazing Atheist and Thunderf00t they have both gone balls to the wall anti-feminist. Thunderf00t seems to have developed a drooling obsession with Anita Sarkesian (apologies if I spelled that wrong) and seems to have lost all of his remaining reasoning skills. The Amazing Atheist seems to have gone down that root too, with numerous anti feminist rants. I also saw a blog post calling out TJ for racism.

Given that these two are rather popular among atheists, a lot of whom don't seem to have a problem with their tirades against SJWs. Do you think the atheist movement has a problem with misogyny and racism?

I know thunderf00t and the Amazing Atheist are not representative of atheism, but they do represent a problem within the movement in my opinion.

Hi just posting my opinion on the matter.

I also have stopped subscribing to Thunderf00t and (The -not so- Amazing Atheist) TJ. The first period of half a year of so after recognizing I am an atheist, I looked up many popular atheists on youtube, TJ among of them. I didn't watch many of his videos and based on the ones I did watch after a while I just couldn't stand the way he argues (mostly just being an asshole). So I unsubscribed and am now embarrassed by the fact of ever been a subscriber of TJ, especially when I saw many of the apprehensive things he said to a rape victim. With Thunderf00t it took much longer. I love and still do his videos debunking creationism, climate change denialism, many other woo and also these very pleasant videos with high speed camera footage of chemical reactions. But many of those are old videos and when I became a subscriber he started to make increasingly more videos about feminism, which I still watched but didn't like as much as the other ones. After watching many of his videos on feminism I thought that feminism was totally irrational and just overreactive and that their time has passed. But after watching a video by AronRa "Reconsidering norms" I have recognized that I have not bothered to look up what feminism is and what it is about. I changed my mind and I recognize myself as a feminist (someone who is for gender equality with regard to economic, social and political issues). But I still was subscribed to Thunderf00t even though I often disagree with him. But he still kept making more videos that were quite frankly absurd. Lik one he was complaining about the fact that the reason rally of 2016 had LGTBQ rights as one of its priorities. I don't know why you can complain about that. He says the social justice warriors had taken over the reason rally, but I don't know what that even means. SJW has become a buzzword against people raising issues that some are legit like LGBTQ rights and people who use these words or phrases like "drinking the feminist/SJW kool-aid" aren't really making an argument.
So sadly I unsubscribed to Thunderf00t as well.

With regard to the atheist community, it is rather unclear what that would mean. Atheists as a group are everywhere regarding moral, social and political issues. Though if there is something as a community, which I think there is, I think we should be concerned about these issues. Like separate of church and state is one that many atheists should be in favor for and also should stand for things like equal rights of homosexuals, trans-, bi, women, colored people, etc.
Even thought the atheists lable doesn't mean much other than not believing in a god, we shouldn't be too hung up about this label as the only thing that defines us.

 

[Laurens]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

Seriously? Worse than Ku Klux Klan?


Wham am I missing?

Ok so just to be clear just because the article I linked says he is worse than the KKK doesn't mean I agree with that singular statement.

I agree with the article calling him out for his attitude on poor black neighbourhoods being made nicer for white people like him so he doesn't feel endangered. He essentially says that he doesn't give a shit if poverty stricken black neighbourhoods are forced from their homes to make way for posh apartments. Maybe he is not racist, maybe he is this much of a cunt to everyone, but it doesn't look very good.

If I said I really don't give a shit when innocent black people get shot by police, that I am 'not racist' isn't going to be the first thing that comes to your mind. It might not overtly be a racist statement like if I'd said 'I hope more get killed', but it certainly doesn't rule out that I'm a racist. Now I know not caring about gentrification of black neighbourhoods is not equal to not caring about innocent black people getting shot, and I'm not saying TJ doesn't care about that. But you see where I am coming from.

I don't really see a non-racist saying that it doesn't really distress them to see black neighbourhoods gentrified, in fact they'd prefer it. The best you can say about him for holding that view is that he is an arsehole, if you are adamant that he isn't a racist, but I don't really see why he needs defending.

 

[Duvelthehobbit666]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

I just realised that I unsubscribed and stopped watching TJ's videos because of TF. Their little spat made me realise that TJ is nothing more than an idiot and professional troll.

 

[WarK]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

I agree with the article calling him out for his attitude on poor black neighbourhoods being made nicer for white people like him so he doesn't feel endangered. He essentially says that he doesn't give a shit if poverty stricken black neighbourhoods are forced from their homes to make way for posh apartments. Maybe he is not racist, maybe he is this much of a cunt to everyone, but it doesn't look very good.

I skimmed wiki page on gentrification. From what I understand it's about making an area nicer which in turn makes property values go up which in turn makes it hard for poor people to pay the rent and they're eventually forced to move out.

Is it really directed at black people? Or is it that usually black people in the US are poorer?

Opposing gentrification would mean that shitty neighbourhoods stay shitty. Unless you find a way to keep property values unchanged or provide social housing (I think that's what Paris does)

If I said I really don't give a shit when innocent black people get shot by police, that I am 'not racist' isn't going to be the first thing that comes to your mind. It might not overtly be a racist statement like if I'd said 'I hope more get killed', but it certainly doesn't rule out that I'm a racist. Now I know not caring about gentrification of black neighbourhoods is not equal to not caring about innocent black people getting shot, and I'm not saying TJ doesn't care about that. But you see where I am coming from.

It looks like TJ does give a shit



I don't think it's justified to say that atheist movement has a problem with racism and misogyny just because two de-facto leaders of the movement are accused of being racist and misogynist. I'm not subscribed to TJ's YT channel and I don't watch all of tf00t's vids that show up in my feed but from what I've seen they both attacked cases of utter stupidity on part of some supposedly feminists and antiracists (is this even a word) like buzzfeed or Anita Sarkisian. Sure they both could've been more eloquent and, tf00t in particular, don't generalise as much.

It seems that some people think that black people can't be racist. When someone points to stupidity of this statement they are called... racist.

I don't really see a non-racist saying that it doesn't really distress them to see black neighbourhoods gentrified, in fact they'd prefer it. The best you can say about him for holding that view is that he is an arsehole, if you are adamant that he isn't a racist, but I don't really see why he needs defending.

Being an arsehole is part of his persona(lity). He needs defending because he was called worse than Ku Klux Klan which he clearly isn't. He got called racists because some SJW saw his vid calling bullshit on buzzfeed's "20 questions to white people" and made a blog post about it.

 

[Laurens]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

I skimmed wiki page on gentrification. From what I understand it's about making an area nicer which in turn makes property values go up which in turn makes it hard for poor people to pay the rent and they're eventually forced to move out.

Is it really directed at black people? Or is it that usually black people in the US are poorer?

Opposing gentrification would mean that shitty neighbourhoods stay shitty. Unless you find a way to keep property values unchanged or provide social housing (I think that's what Paris does)

I don't think opposing gentrification necessarily means you want shitty places to stay shitty. Its an opposition to social cleansing, where rich folks can get rid of the unsightly poor, whilst governments do little to help.

If it was that the neighbourhoods were being improved for the current residents, or that society did look after the disposed people with social housing, it wouldn't be a problem. As it stands gentrification is awful, and it hurts the worst off in society, a large proportion of which happen to be black people.

I don't think it's justified to say that atheist movement has a problem with racism and misogyny just because two de-facto leaders of the movement are accused of being racist and misogynist. I'm not subscribed to TJ's YT channel and I don't watch all of tf00t's vids that show up in my feed but from what I've seen they both attacked cases of utter stupidity on part of some supposedly feminists and antiracists (is this even a word) like buzzfeed or Anita Sarkisian. Sure they both could've been more eloquent and, tf00t in particular, don't generalise as much.

I did make a post pointing out that Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, and Christopher Hitchens have all said misogynistic things. A lot of Sam Harris' rhetoric is verging on racism too, so I don't think it's limited to TJ and TF. I just think that they represent a particularly nasty side of atheism.

Okay so maybe they are just anti radical feminist and anti SJW types. They do not seem at all worried about distancing themselves from the misogynists in their audience whom they will inevitably attract with their content. I mean I might call out some of the stupid shit that radical feminists say in the name of their cause, but I would be very clear to anyone reading or listening or whatever that I myself am actually a feminist, and I would explain why it is stupid from that perspective. If they aren't against equal rights and treatment for everyone (feminism) they don't do a very good job of making that clear.

TF and TJ enable the kinds of people who make jokes about raping a 15-year-old when they post a picture on reddit. It is without doubt that prominent female atheists get rape threats. Sure they might not actually be followed through with anything, but it speaks of a subsection of the community that want to push prominent women away especially when they talk about feminism. The point is not about whether these threats amount to anything, its about a viscous misogynistic undercurrent that is very vocal against feminist atheists.

People like TJ and TF are champions of these kind of people, and I don't see them calling it out. Maybe they don't hold those extreme views, but if I devoted a lot of my time and effort to laughing at things radical feminists say, and I had a load of knuckle dragging people making rape jokes and threats follow me I would make it very emphatically clear that they weren't welcome. If I ever said anything and had a load of misogynistic arseholes cheer and go "you tell them" I'd have to question whether or not I was on the right side of things.

There is a problem when a 15 year old girl wants to talk about an amazing book that she has bought, and douche bags make paedophillic jokes about raping her. I doubt she felt welcomed as an atheist, and I wouldn't blame her if she didn't want anything to do with the atheist community. That is a shame, and ultimately to the detriment of secularism as a whole.

 

[Laurens]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

TJ launching into a horrendous attack on a rape victim on reddit

The Amazing Atheist is not just an arsehole, he is a misogynistic arsehole.

 

[Dustnite]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

I should probably have been clear that TF so far as I am aware has not posted anything that can be construed as racist. Whether or not he is overtly misogynistic in his videos, he certainly enables people with those views with the content he puts out there. So far as I know he's never come out against the misogynists in his view base.

TJ on the other hand has said quite a lot of racist stuff. Basically perpetuating the stereotype that black people are criminal thugs and they should be pushed out of neighbourhoods to make them nicer for white people.

Nobody I've come across is saying due process of the law should be suspended during rape cases, or that people should be excluded from dialogue for their privilege. The first point you mentioned is true though, minorities and women are oppressed in society.

I think we can agree that TJ is a fucking idiot on any given day. He makes spurious arguments usually coupled with anecdotal evidence only. Sometimes, he gets close to making some good points but usually opts to troll before getting there. To your OP, I'm not worried about atheists on youtube trying to give a "bad name" to atheists abroad since there's not really a movement that exists. Labelling myself an atheist says something about what I'm not, not what I AM. I tend to fall into secular humanism when I start talking about these issues.

Here's some stuff on due process I've been seeing:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...f3ee6e-1860-11e6-9e16-2e5a123aac62_story.html
http://www.npr.org/2015/10/15/44608...f-campus-rape-legal-victories-win-back-rights
https://www.insidehighered.com/news...against-colleges-punished-them-sexual-assault

The first point you mentioned is true though, minorities and women are oppressed in society.

The only caveat I have for this is that I agree that minorities and women face oppression on some level, I don't think that oppression is conducted by a nameless, faceless body called the Patriarchy (whatever that is). I also never hear by what metric we measure this level of oppression to its hard to even discuss it usually. In fact, the whole discussion is mired with such monochromatic, dogmatic views that I find it hard to discuss anything reasonable on this topic.

Also, I would stop reading freethoughtblogs (at least Pharyngula and Blah Hag imo). They are obviously biased toward any counter argument on this topic as well.

 

[Dustnite]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

TJ launching into a horrendous attack on a rape victim on reddit

The Amazing Atheist is not just an arsehole, he is a misogynistic arsehole.

Given that the reddit post being alluded to is 4 years old and the evidence is removed/deleted I'm reserving judgement on this one.

I will add that some atheists have made sexist comments in the past (Dawkins, Hitchens) and I still find the content and wisdom they produced to be worthwhile. I would suggest that we need to look at the actual argument instead of coloring our perceptions based off past transgressions. We should only have to attack the argument, not the person to move forward.

 

[Laurens]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

TJ launching into a horrendous attack on a rape victim on reddit

The Amazing Atheist is not just an arsehole, he is a misogynistic arsehole.

Given that the reddit post being alluded to is 4 years old and the evidence is removed/deleted I'm reserving judgement on this one.

I will add that some atheists have made sexist comments in the past (Dawkins, Hitchens) and I still find the content and wisdom they produced to be worthwhile. I would suggest that we need to look at the actual argument instead of coloring our perceptions based off past transgressions. We should only have to attack the argument, not the person to move forward.

Given the reactions in the thread and the fact that he felt it necessary to delete the comments, I think its pretty safe to assume he did say something along the lines of the quoted text in the blog post.

It's worth noting that Hitchens and Dawkins have actually made worthwhile contributions, whilst I'd argue that the Amazing Atheist hasn't at all. Not to mention that though Dawkins and Hitch have said misogynistic things, they never told a rape victim that they deserved it, and that they deserved to be raped again. That's kinda on another level.

So far as I can tell he has never apologised for what he said.

There are multiple sources that back up the blog I linked. Just google 'Amazing Atheist rape victim'

EDIT:

He said this by way of apology:

Why is it okay to mock my weight, my penis size, my sexual proclivities, my grooming habits, etc. in retaliation for a minor quibble about what I perceived to be the hypocrisy of a certain username--but when I fight back THAT crosses the line? I apologize for getting angry and taking things too far, but I was outnumbered by people who were doing nothing but flinging insults. I think a lot of people smarter than me would have said stupid things if they found themselves in a similar situation. So, while I do apologize for SOME of the statements I made, I do not accept anywhere near the level of blame you are attempting to foist upon me.

In my opinion that doesn't sound like a sincere apology, at least not sincere enough given the horrible shit that he said.

 

[Dustnite]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

Then don't listen or watch TJ's stuff?

I'm not sure why we're discussing why a professional troll does what he does

Per your OP, I am still wholly unconcerned with doing any type of PR work for the atheism movement as it's not something that really exists.

 

[Laurens]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

Then don't listen or watch TJ's stuff?

I'm not sure why we're discussing why a professional troll does what he does

Per your OP, I am still wholly unconcerned with doing any type of PR work for the atheism movement as it's not something that really exists.

I don't know what you mean when you say it doesn't really exist?

That the community of people discussing atheism and secularism on the internet doesn't exist? That the people who attend conventions and events don't exist? That these somehow don't constitute a movement or a community?

To me the atheist community/movement does exist in some pretty tangible ways. And like any kind of political movement, its down to the individual members to steer it in the right direction.

 

[Nesslig20]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

Then don't listen or watch TJ's stuff?

I'm not sure why we're discussing why a professional troll does what he does

Per your OP, I am still wholly unconcerned with doing any type of PR work for the atheism movement as it's not something that really exists.

Doesn't exist? eh?
- Reason Rally
- Skepticon
- Logicon
- Imagine no religion
- unholy trinity tour
Anyone?

 

[Dustnite]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

So I must of missed the meeting where I voted for the atheist leader to represent my views within the "movement."

I think you're conflating schools of thought like secular humanism with atheism and you're putting an inordinate amount of importance on a couple loud people on YouTube. It's not like we have a convention or an organization where we vote people in to lead anything.

- Reason Rally
Atheists are in it, but the main purpose of this is to promote skepticism. Being an atheist is not necessarily a requirement to being a skeptic, although it seems that way sometimes.
- Skepticon
Right in the name. We're talking about skepticism.
- Logicon
Secular Humanism promotion.
- Imagine no religion
Again Secular Humanism
- unholy trinity tour
Skepticism


This is the same problem that Atheism+ tries to push. Anyone who calls themselves atheist must now adhere to whatever you're attaching to the definition. Like I said earlier, atheism tells you a single position of belief and has nothing else attached to it. It tells you what you AREN'T not what you ARE.

EDIT: @Nesslig or @Lauren:

What is your definition of an atheist and what beliefs and precepts should one hold as an atheist?

 

[Dragan Glas]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

Greetings,

So I must of missed the meeting where I voted for the atheist leader to represent my views within the "movement."

I think you're conflating schools of thought like secular humanism with atheism and you're putting an inordinate amount of importance on a couple loud people on YouTube. It's not like we have a convention or an organization where we vote people in to lead anything.

- Reason Rally
Atheists are in it, but the main purpose of this is to promote skepticism. Being an atheist is not necessarily a requirement to being a skeptic, although it seems that way sometimes.
- Skepticon
Right in the name. We're talking about skepticism.
- Logicon
Secular Humanism promotion.
- Imagine no religion
Again Secular Humanism
- unholy trinity tour
Skepticism


This is the same problem that Atheism+ tries to push. Anyone who calls themselves atheist must now adhere to whatever you're attaching to the definition. Like I said earlier, atheism tells you a single position of belief and has nothing else attached to it. It tells you what you AREN'T not what you ARE.

EDIT: @Nesslig or @Lauren:

What is your definition of an atheist and what beliefs and precepts should one hold as an atheist?

As I've mentioned on a number of occasions.

Re the topic...

As has been noted earlier, "atheism" - as a "group" - is a broad-tent that comprises lots of different positions on various issues - philosophical, political, social, economic, etc.

One should not be astonished to find that these include controversial ones as well. After all, "theism" - as a "group" - suffers from the same "problem".

Kindest regards,

James

 

[Laurens]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

What is your definition of an atheist and what beliefs and precepts should one hold as an atheist?

Someone who doesn't believe in gods.

That doesn't mean however that I'm not going to speak out against misogyny and prejudice in other people who hold that view. Just because atheism doesn't describe anything about a person beyond what they don't believe doesn't mean we should just go 'oh ok, I guess I won't speak out against the misogynistic people in that group then'

So far as I see it, the publication of books by Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens, and Dennett created a surge in popularity of atheism, this then lead to a wave of activism, and community both on and offline where more and more people started to question the existence of gods and religion's place in society. Call that what you want, but I call it a movement. It is a tangible thing that happened.

If an atheist said they believed in ghosts, would you have a problem with someone telling them that they as an atheist should be more sceptical?

When I say an atheist should not be misogynist, I am basically also saying that they ought to be more rational as an atheist.

 

[Nesslig20]

Re: Does atheist movement have a problem with Misogyny/Racis

What is your definition of an atheist and what beliefs and precepts should one hold as an atheist?

What laurens said.