Colloidal Silver

[borrofburi]

My point is very clear: Colloidal Silver is a very powerful/broad-spectrum antimicrobial (Shorthand, see implications in first post) agent that stimulates the growth of new cells.

Your point is completely and entirely unsubstantiated. My point is very clear: there is a large troll living in my house, he gives me money but wrecks things fairly often. I once left him here and came back to find my favorite chair demolished, but he was very apologetic and gave me money more than twice it's worth (he's not very good at math)... My claim now has as much evidence as yours does.

Reality says (For me)

I'm sorry, but this is not how reality works. Reality, for me, is that there is a large troll living in my house and that it is a good source of income because it pays me at least double for everything it breaks.

claims

Anecdote is not evidence. Putting aside the possibility that you are flat out lying, placebo is a very strong effect. You also necessarily leave out details, details that may matter. As a quick example (ripped from qualiasoup), I had a friend over and he saw my lamp shade was moving and instantly proclaimed it as a ghost. Had he then left he could have gone on to convincingly say that he saw a ghost, making claims like "the lamp shade was moving but there was no explanation for it (that I could come up with, therefore you can't have come up with one either except that there was a ghost)", but I then went and turned off the fan that was blowing on it and it stopped. That fan detail would have been left out in his future recounting of the story and it would have become anecdote claiming that it was evidence for ghosts. Anecdote is not evidence.

These are all just personal experiences

Exactly, which makes them anecdote, which is not evidence.

I've known from the beginning that they mean nothing to anyone here

Then why come here? If you know you have no evidence then why come trying to convince people who, in general, demand evidence?

because you can make this and test is just as I have.

You have NOT tested it. Maybe you can understand by analogy, according to your definition of test, monavie users, magnet therapy users, homeopathy users, my troll, touch therapy users, rolfing users, or ionic foot bath users have tested their claims and products and they have been found successful because there are people like you who swear by them. Yet all clinical trials for these products have simply failed.

Sorry, but I don't feel the need to go through so much work to prove to myself that it's working (Documentation).

That is unfortunate and pathetic. I also have these sugar pills for sale, I hear they're even more effective than colloidal silver. They work because they're time release and make it further into your gut, a place commonly deprived of sugar. I sell them for $10 a pill and have done more vigorous research than you have because my entire family swears by them.

More precisely this sort of attitude is exactly why people purchase all sort of pseudoscience, essentially saying "I don't need evidence to believe something works, anecdote is good enough for me", unfortunately for them believing does not make it so.

This isn't an error of mine, but of yours in regards to over-skepticism.

Over skepticism? Demanding valid evidence is too much? Shit, all those people telling me I was closed minded for not accepting ghosts, magnet therapy, homeopathy, flat earth, geocentric universe, controlled falling / intelligent gravity, young earth creationism, intelligent design, ionic foot baths, touch therapy, faith healing, monavie, homeopathy, etc. because there was no evidence was right! I should have accepted them on their testimony alone!

TEST. IT. FOR. YOURSELF.

No. This is not how science works and this is not the process by which to determine if something works. I know you think that you have seen dramatic improvement in your life caused by this product, however that is exactly how most people in clinical trials on placebo feel, as well as how pretty much everyone who swears by some pseudoscience that fails clinical trials feel. They are all wrong, as are you.

 

[jrparri]

Well this:

So you basically end up with water with the same concentration of silver that you get from chlorine in your tap water. Way to go. Even if silver was a super antiseptic as good as bleach, you've essentially made tap water.

Certainly explains this:

I've been using the CS I've made almost daily, including spraying it on my skin in excess, and have only had positive effects from it.
I'm not blue

Case closed.

 

[Niocan]

The point is that you are trying to convince everyone else with your anecdotal "experiment", if you want to show that it has any merit, you have to do it the right way.
It is not going to be a crapy experiment from someone that doesn't even know what he is doing that is going to convince me or anyone else.
This sort of things have to be done by someone who actually knows what he is doing, specially some one that can notice related effects like metallic poisoning for instance (so he can guarantee if it is harmless or not or if it does what it is claimed to be doing). Even if it was doing exactly what you are claiming to do, you get no credit because you cannot show it in a coherent way.
And certainly asking some random person to do some experiment in order to give you a positive note, is not going to give you any credit for it because that random person doesn't know what he is doing either.

Well I'm certainly glad I didn't spend that much time to go over the small details of each area so people *would* know what they're doing, and I encouraged anyone to ask if they need help. Hell I even added the fact of the moon's affect on the solution being made, of which I thought for sure would be blasted but I suppose because of your inescapable viewpoint this was just icing on the cake.

Essentally you guys are just shooting the messenger here. Silver has been known to have these properties for a long time now and was used in many areas. I feel you guys (As you've no doubt shown me now) can nitpick over just about anything, and never seem to take the time to think these things through. Here's a page with many references, and please check to see if the article is still up in its respected journal.

This is exactly the sort of way that many crazy pseudo-scientist start their self-deluded "experiments", they don't know what are they doing but because the experiment feels successful they think they got something important when in fact they got jack.

This isn't started by me, and the design is that of Bob Becks... Which he gave away for free, and he's the holder of a few patents none the less.
The whole notion that I'm somehow more wrong when I present and go through the process in the cheapest manner possible is absurd, and I did that specifically for people like you.

To scalyblue: I'm not sure why it's like that as well, but it does output the ~5hz square wave. See the attached vid for a rough demo of the wave and the device, rough is the key word. (You can just use alligator clips instead of any RCA jack)


Also yes, the concentrations of silver are always low when making it with low voltage. The highest they can get before an almost forced agglomeration (without 'stabilizers', which are BS and unneeded anyway) is about 25ppm. An effective dose of silver is anything higher then about 3-5ppm. I'm replacing chlorine with silver, which has been shown to be a much better (and safer) antimicrobial agent.

To borrofburi: The idea of claiming a figurative troll has the same validity then a metal that's been used (and still being used, check out the recent explosion of "nano-silver-laced" substances like cloths, bedsheets, etc) and documented (See above for a link to references) is childish in the highest degree. Please look this up a little yourself if you want to debate about the effectiveness. Also, reality works by being real as per its definition. Your troll can never be real, and silver is. Whether or not it works is the key, and I've shown it does for myself.

Your whole spiel about claims is understandable, but that isn't what I'm getting at... In fact I've told you many times that I can list whatever claims and research I can find and it still won't matter to skeptics with a stick up their ass... Which is exactly why I started off with basic claims and an experiment to back it up. You don't have to prove that drinking it cures AIDS, that's overshooting it quite a bit, just prove if it works on whatever little test you want to try. My milk test was small, insignificant, and almost meaningless but at least now I can say that whatever silver is deposited into the water shows anti-bacterial effects. There's a big claim going around that I've been striving to not mention but it's the claim of "650 different microbes killed". This claim only makes sense if the silver attacks the microbes in a similar fashion, and the oxygen-enzyme being disabled is the theory behind that.
Milk test = AIDS being cured? No, not in the least bit, but it's a START for trying to match up what's been said about it and what it actually can do. And yes, I've tested it on whatever I can find.

To jrparri: *Sigh* Just, no.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Guys... quit feeding the troll.

 

[Niocan]

Guys... quit feeding the troll.

Would a troll lay out the whole process along with expected results and tips to improve it? No, a troll would tell you that they make the only best kind of silver, ULTRA NANO SIZED YO THE REST IS BS MINE IS THE REAL THING, and after demand money for whatever product he's pushing until his lack of credibility is crushed from the probing questions... I've had to clear the path of BS most of these people spew to understand that the basic premise is there, and it's easy to test.

I'm telling you to make it yourself, cheaply, and to do small scale tests before trying anything with the product you made. I'm here to help, but only if you ask.

 

[Aught3]

I have two questions: what is colloidal silver, is it any different from just dissolving silver ions in water?
and Niocan what is your point? Try to keep it short.

 

[Niocan]

I have two questions: what is colloidal silver, is it any different from just dissolving silver ions in water?
and Niocan what is your point? Try to keep it short.

The definition would be: Silver suspended in water by Brownian motion, which implies it's small particle sizes, and that's exactly how it's made . Or rather, by the arcing in the water between the two electrodes. It's like plating, but because silver ions carry the positive charge they repel each other, and so the silver just stays in the water.

My point, is that the substance is valid and it's easy to make. Though I'm not sure of the exact range of effectiveness because I don't have access to any labs ;P. What this implies, is that we can cure ourselves of whichever illnesses caused by infectious microbes.

 

[Aught3]

^Ok, thanks. So you can pretty much just dissolve silver into water and make colloidal silver. As far as I am aware silver does have antimicrobial properties, but as a cure all? No way. It's not even routinely used as a disinfectant.

I do use a product called simple silver in a spa and it works quite well to keep the water clean. It does release silicon, oxides, and silver ions though.

 

[borrofburi]

but I suppose because of your inescapable viewpoint

Because asking for evidence is such a horrible viewpoint to have.

Silver has been known to have these properties for a long time now and was used in many areas.

If this is the case we can of course expect that there are scientific well studied valid tests that provide evidence for your claims that you can point us to (no, some guys blog is not a valid scientific source and not the place where well controlled experiments are published).

Also, I see you completely ignored my entire post on the validity of requiring evidence and why your anecdotal claims are NOT evidence.

 

[Niocan]

...but as a cure all? No way. It's not even routinely used as a disinfectant.

I do use a product called simple silver in a spa and it works quite well to keep the water clean. It does release silicon, oxides, and silver ions though.

I hate the word cure-all as well, and it's fallacious to say because it's false... though the action that gives silver it's properties affects the microbes on a very basic level: Disable their lungs (Oxygen producing enzyme). It's much the same general method of killing as Oxygen is to anaerobic type bacteria.

As for the spa cleaner, it's exactly the same as CS . The added oxygen increases the effectiveness and I'm looking into bubbling ozone into the batch instead of just air, but that's a side tweak I'm looking to improve with (Or warn against, depending if it works better or not).
Check out these references, for a verity of studies about low voltage CS.

 

[Niocan]

(...)If this is the case we can of course expect that there are scientific well studied valid tests that provide evidence for your claims that you can point us to (no, some guys blog is not a valid scientific source and not the place where well controlled experiments are published).

Also, I see you completely ignored my entire post on the validity of requiring evidence and why your anecdotal claims are NOT evidence.

Here's a page with many references, and please check to see if the article is still up in its respected journal.

 

[scalyblue]

Circuit still doesn't *do* anything. There's nothing special about a 5v square wave. :shrug: I'm done, you fail biology forever, you fail electronics forever.

 

[Niocan]

Circuit still doesn't *do* anything. There's nothing special about a 5v square wave. :shrug: I'm done, you fail biology forever, you fail electronics forever.

Well I said before to keep this thread about CS and not the Pulser, but if you insist:
The circuit is attached to two small electrodes (Stainless steel is recommended I believe, but I'm not sure because I haven't tinkered with it just yet =p) and they're placed directly on the arteries nearest to the wrist. The idea and patent behind this suggest that the microbes (shorthand) have their outer protein layers disabled, so your white blood cells can identify and consume them far more easily (Through the loss of charge and or protective layer of the microbes, forgive my shorthands but I'm rushing this).
There's a small current (The 5hz wave, and very low amperage) that passes into the blood and out to the other electrode. This may seem futile but the conductivity of the blood is far greater then the skin (Which in fact acts as a insulator against the outside world). So instead of passing over the skin, the current enters the blood, which starts a process called electroporation of the cells. I'm not sure if it's this process directly or if it's an indirect effect, but this is how it works; Very roughly stated >.> so please check out the patent for the details you wish, and yes the patent says nothing of external devices being used but it proves the idea to be correct.

 

[GoodKat]

Maybe I'll start making and taking my own colloidal silver so I can join the blue man group!

 

[scalyblue]

idiocy

There are some words in there, like "electroporation" that I think you really don't know what they mean.

You use the fact that this machine was patented as a validation; it's not. Here's another patent that has about as much medical significance as yours


I recall another metal that too had a huge following of people that said it had medicinal and curative properties. They also used it for plates, cups, food preparation, plumbing and countless other things, like the paint chips you ate when you were younger

I leave you with this as a final rebuttal, I can't deal with the waves of stupidness anymore, I thought this was supposed to be a bastion for reason on the internet and it's just full of ppl like you.
http://www.webanstrich.de/rosemary/silverfraud.html

 

[borrofburi]

(...)If this is the case we can of course expect that there are scientific well studied valid tests that provide evidence for your claims that you can point us to (no, some guys blog is not a valid scientific source and not the place where well controlled experiments are published).

Also, I see you completely ignored my entire post on the validity of requiring evidence and why your anecdotal claims are NOT evidence.

Here's a page with many references, and please check to see if the article is still up in its respected journal.

some guys blog is not a valid scientific source

 

[Niocan]

There are some words in there, like "electroporation" that I think you really don't know what they mean.

I feel as though you can't grasp the concept that I've done my homework..

You use the fact that this machine was patented as a validation; it's not. (...)Here's another patent that has about as much medical significance as yours
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I gave the link of the patent so you can look into it more if you had questions about it.. Can I ask why you'd compare it to cat massage?

I leave you with this as a final rebuttal, I can't deal with the waves of stupidness anymore, I thought this was supposed to be a bastion for reason on the internet and it's just full of ppl like you.
http://www.webanstrich.de/rosemary/silverfraud.html

I've gone though the 'blue man syndrome' enough to articulate the differences in production methods and the reasons as to why it would happen if you lack common sense..

The levels of silver that are held in the water are far smaller then what most people seem to think (ppm = mg/L). If I drank a 1 liter batch (20ppm) everyday for 50 days I'd have accumulated 1g of silver... Assuming none of it is expelled. I don't need to drink that much everyday; That's an absurd amount to take, but the best thing is that even that won't turn you blue.

An even better thing to think about, is that you *don't need to take it everyday*. Use it as it is, a broad spectrum antibiotic, when you need it...

Grow up borrodburi, you can use google like the rest of us.

 

[stulogic]

I can't really be bothered to waste my time debunking your pseudo BS. But that's exactly what it is.

The fact remains that you've failed to outline any reasonable scientific hypothesis that hasn't already been evaluated and dismissed, have failed to follow a controlled scientific method, and have failed to take on board or discuss with any depth many of the comments given in reply to your posts on this thread. You say on one hand you've done your homework, and yet on the other..."I believe stainless steel is recommended, but I've not tinkered with it yet.."

You are pedalling bunk. nothing more, nothing less, regardless of you protesting your informational philanthropy. Whether it's because you have an agenda, or you're just misinformed, I frankly don't know nor care.

I say that with quite some experience in dealing with silver ion freshwater water treatment. To clarify, I used to be a marine engineer in the merchant navy, the ships I worked on were predominantly supertankers, on which we made our own freshwater, by boiling sea water in a vacuum (at around 35-40 degrees). Obviously this means the water needs treating before it's safe for consumption. Many ships use Silver Ion Treatment to sterilize water, generally to a maximum of 0.1ppm, and before it's deemed safe for consumption it has to be 0.08ppm. This is the max by law, and has to be tested daily by someone qualified to do so (yours truly) and bi-annually by an independent chemist. This is what various health authorities from a plethora of countries' medical guru teams and the world health organization, who know far more than you or I about this subject have deemed an acceptable safe maximum concentration level.

We've long known the merits, constraints and criticisms of silver in all manner of uses like the one outlined above. It works, it's proven, it's been reviewed by people who are qualified to judge how acceptable it is for purpose. We've also known that there's a lot of misinformation about the matter, especially regarding colloidal silver. It's utter dross.

there's very little conclusive scientific evidence out there to support the use of colloidal silver in the manner you describe, and you neglect the fact that not only can a bacterial resistance to silver be built, as well as the effects it could have on things like immunological memory. Lest we forget that marketing colloidal silver in the manner you describe would see you getting pretty much hauled through the courts if you were to pedal it for commercial gain in some countries, and rightly so.

Read this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15114827

and this: http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/PhonyAds/silverad.html

But then I'm sure you'll come back with some pseudo-intellectual response blithering about how you've done your homework and that I'm ignorant and don't know what I'm talking about. But then, I'm not the one trying to convince people.

Normally I wouldn't bother replying to someone so misinformed, as it's up there with the fruit loop creationists in terms of how fast it enters one ear and leaves the other, but the fact you're encouraging people to do something which could potentially harm them, presenting it as fact when it's quite the opposite, and the fact you're attempting to pass off a fundamentally flawed method as conclusive is beyond just being a bit thin up top - it's dangerous, and perpetuates this retarded obsession with alternative medicines like homeopathy, which frankly does nothing other than hinder real medicinal research and development. Seriously, give it up - you might not turn blue, but you might end up being diagnosed with a case of terminal stupidity, it's not too late to save yourself, but you're walking a damn fine line.

If you truly believe it's something special, get it peer reviewed and published, then I'll start taking you seriously. For now, I see it as being as effective as using house bricks in homeopathy.

 

[borrofburi]

Grow up borrodburi, you can use google like the rest of us.

I'm afraid that's not the way to go about convincing people. Saying "the evidence is out there" is not evidence. *You* came to us, *you* want to convince us, *you* must provide evidence.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Is this that Paradigm guy again, with a different screen name and a new pile of stupid?