Can a Christian be a communist?

[WarK]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/historyboy77/status/584120709733048321[/tweet]

I think I've just heard heads exploding at fox news.

 

[Shanara99]

I don't see why not.

I mean, this Jesus character allegedly spoke against the rich, and was all aboutsharing the riches... so why not? It even makes sense to me that christians would be communist. At least more than the alternative.

 

[tuxbox]

In order to get to Communism you have to kill the people who do not want it, via a revolution. At least that is what Marx believed. So if a Christian is a Communist, they are not following the teachings of Christ.

 

[Shanara99]

I accept your point, tuxbox, but I disagree on the premise that communism must be imposed by a revolution, killing those who disagree with it.

As proof I present you with the intriguing case of Marinaleda, a county in Spain which happens to be communist, and noone was killed to impose it.

Edit: they also happen to be mostly christian there. Catholic, to be precise.

 

[tuxbox]

I accept your point, tuxbox, but I disagree on the premise that communism must be imposed by a revolution, killing those who disagree with it.

As proof I present you with the intriguing case of Marinaleda, a county in Spain which happens to be communist, and noone was killed to impose it.

Edit: they also happen to be mostly christian there. Catholic, to be precise.

I was unaware of Marinaleda. I had to use Wikipedia to look it up. They are described as communist, but I doubt Marx would agree.

 

[Shanara99]

I was unaware of Marinaleda. I had to use Wikipedia to look it up. They are described as communist, but I doubt Marx would agree.

Yeah, I didn't link because I only had spanish links, I don't think Marx would agree, either... but hey, they claim to be communist. And I just refuse to commit a "no true Christian" fallacy there.

 

[WarK]

I accept your point, tuxbox, but I disagree on the premise that communism must be imposed by a revolution, killing those who disagree with it.

As proof I present you with the intriguing case of Marinaleda, a county in Spain which happens to be communist, and noone was killed to impose it.

Edit: they also happen to be mostly christian there. Catholic, to be precise.

I was unaware of Marinaleda. I had to use Wikipedia to look it up. They are described as communist, but I doubt Marx would agree.

No true communist™?

Anyways, I found the picutre funny because the US media, namely FoxNews, seem to think that it's impossible. They think that those two are ultimate opposites.

They also think that greed driven capitalism is what Christ wanted.

 

[tuxbox]

No true communist™?

Anyways, I found the picutre funny because the US media, namely FoxNews, seem to think that it's impossible. They think that those two are ultimate opposites.

They also think that greed driven capitalism is what Christ wanted.

lol, Communism is a stateless society according to Marx. Marinaleda is part of a state and it is not a "dictatorship of the proletariat". That is what I meant.

I doubt Christ would agree with the greed of capitalism and damn certain that he would not agree with an all powerful state dictating what, when, where and how people lived under threat of imprisonment or death.

That said, Fox News is an entertainment network with right leaning staff. Just like all the other networks in America that have left leaning staff. All news outlets in America are bad jokes and do not represent the people, which is harmful to the Republic.

 

[tuxbox]

I was unaware of Marinaleda. I had to use Wikipedia to look it up. They are described as communist, but I doubt Marx would agree.

Yeah, I didn't link because I only had spanish links, I don't think Marx would agree, either... but hey, they claim to be communist. And I just refuse to commit a "no true Christian" fallacy there.

I never said that they were not Christians. All I said, is that to follow Marx teachings is to not follow Christ's teachings. They are not compatible. Just like the Christians of Germany that followed Hitler were not compatible with his teachings.

 

[sick_jesus]

If you think of the model of communism as a straight line and the model of Christianity as a triangle, then in order to make communism compatible with Christianity you'd have to distort (revise) the line.

So there could be Christian communism but it'd have to be a highly revised form of communism, and like Stalinism it would finally have little to do with the original concept.

Or they could go about it the other way around and unfold the triangle, turn it into a flat line. In that instance:

Sure, a Christian could be a communist, they'd just have to get rid of Jesus and God and hope their brains could recover in the process.

If a Christian ever turned up at my communist group he'd get badly beaten first and then raped. That's how we convert them types (logic just doesn't work).

 

[tuxbox]

If you think of the model of communism as a straight line and the model of Christianity as a triangle, then in order to make communism compatible with Christianity you'd have to distort (revise) the line.

So there could be Christian communism but it'd have to be a highly revised form of communism, and like Stalinism it would finally have little to do with the original concept.

Or they could go about it the other way around and unfold the triangle, turn it into a flat line. In that instance:

Sure, a Christian could be a communist, they'd just have to get rid of Jesus and God and hope their brains could recover in the process.

If a Christian ever turned up at my communist group he'd get badly beaten first and then raped. That's how we convert them types (logic just doesn't work).

You made perfect sense up until the highlighted part.

 

[sick_jesus]

Sure, a Christian could be a communist, they'd just have to get rid of Jesus and God and hope their brains could recover in the process.

If a Christian ever turned up at my communist group he'd get badly beaten first and then raped. That's how we convert them types (logic just doesn't work).

You made perfect sense up until the highlighted part.

Had to give them something to bite on!

But seriously, the first line (getting rid of Jesus and God) refers to the inverse of making communism fit Christianity. So if they were to do it the other way around and make Christianity fit communism, they'd have to get rid of their hierarchical and autocratic system (making the triangular system flat). That'd mean having no god's head at the mast.

Second line was just some wormy bait, and the serious part of that is what was put between brackets: logical argument with religious types just doesn't work.

Does that save my soul? :?: :twisted:

 

[tuxbox]

Had to give them something to bite on!

But seriously, the first line (getting rid of Jesus and God) refers to the inverse of making communism fitting Christianity. So if instead they did it the other way around and made Christianity fit communism, they'd have to get rid of their hierarchical and autocratic system (making the triangular system flat). That'd mean having no god's head at the mast.

Second line was just the bait, and the serious part of that is what was put between brackets: logical argument with religious types just doesn't work.

Does that save my soul? :?: :twisted:

LMAO, I'm pretty sure your soul is perfectly safe.

 

[Laurens]

People have an amazing ability to combine all-sorts of disparate beliefs. The worst offenders are those New Age types who would tell you that all religions are true and that pretty much all conspiracy theories are also true.

 

[sick_jesus]

People have an amazing ability to combine all-sorts of disparate beliefs. The worst offenders are those New Age types who would tell you that all religions are true and that pretty much all conspiracy theories are also true.

They [NewAge types] think that's being open-minded.... though if your mind's that open it allows all kinds of shit in. I don't mind them saving trees, it's when they then marry them when I have a problem.

 

[WarK]

People have an amazing ability to combine all-sorts of disparate beliefs. The worst offenders are those New Age types who would tell you that all religions are true and that pretty much all conspiracy theories are also true.

They think that's being open-minded.... though if your mind's that open it allows all kinds of shit in. I don't mind them saving trees, it's when they then marry them when I have a problem.

I think that Lauren's point was that people can hold contradicting beliefs. There are Christians who are communists or socialists or neo-nazi. Just because they hold such contradicting beliefs doesn't mean that they aren't true this nor true that.

Christianity itself has contradicting beliefs. They believe there's only one god but then they have three gods and a goddess. If you want to be strict about this you'd have to say that there can be no true Christians by definition.

 

[sick_jesus]

I think that Lauren's point was that people can hold contradicting beliefs. There are Christians who are communists or socialists or neo-nazi. Just because they hold such contradicting beliefs doesn't mean that they aren't true this nor true that.

Christianity itself has contradicting beliefs. They believe there's only one god but then they have three gods and a goddess. If you want to be strict about this you'd have to say that there can be no true Christians by definition.

Hey Ya WarK... Yes, I understood that. My response was specifically in reply to " The worst offenders are those New Age types " . Reading it over again I see how it could have been a bit confusing as to what part of Lauren's reply I was replying to. I'll do a small edit on it.

 

[Master_Ghost_Knight]

What are you guys talking about? Jesus would have been the biggest commie were he to be real.

There is a big miss apprehension by Americans in regards to communism. It's propagandist a reminiscent of the cold war where you had to identified the enemy in clear lines and evil.
Just because you are communist it doesn't mean that you are getting the full Marxist, Stalinist, absolute dictatorial, "I'm going to work you to death in a gulag if you disagree with me", package.
I personally don't see anything wrong with the idea of having a common infrastructure of society shared equally regardless of birth right or economic status, and putting those resources at work together for a common good. I have no problem with trying to balance the economic disparity between classes. I suspect that is part of the appeal of communism and why so many countries adopt it.
However I have a big issue in the way it has been implemented in most countries, which is generally through an unquestioned absolute dictatorial rule, complemented with taught police, oppression of the masses to demand conformity as dictated by the ruling class, and a singe of imperialist expansionist ideology with a monarch wannabe tendencies. Reason why you should hate the political system of most of the countries identifying themselves as communist. The problem is not the communist part, it's the absolute dictatorship complemented with systems of oppression part.

 

[sick_jesus]

What are you guys talking about? Jesus would have been the biggest commie were he to be real.

There is a big miss apprehension by Americans in regards to communism. It's propagandist a reminiscent of the cold war where you had to identified the enemy in clear lines and evil.
Just because you are communist it doesn't mean that you are getting the full Marxist, Stalinist, absolute dictatorial, "I'm going to work you to death in a gulag if you disagree with me", package.
I personally don't see anything wrong with the idea of having a common infrastructure of society shared equally regardless of birth right or economic status, and putting those resources at work together for a common good. I have no problem with trying to balance the economic disparity between classes. I suspect that is part of the appeal of communism and why so many countries adopt it.
However I have a big issue in the way it has been implemented in most countries, which is generally through an unquestioned absolute dictatorial rule, complemented with taught police, oppression of the masses to demand conformity as dictated by the ruling class, and a singe of imperialist expansionist ideology with a monarch wannabe tendencies. Reason why you should hate the political system of most of the countries identifying themselves as communist. The problem is not the communist part, it's the absolute dictatorship complemented with systems of oppression part.

Nah, if Jesus were real he would have been a Christian... everything he never said makes me think that. A communist, no.... not unless he got rid of his over-bearing father first.

Marxism has nothing to do with Stalinism... Marxism is an economic theory. We've never seen communism in this world... no where near. Communism is the natural conclusion to an economic cycle and needs no revolution but a natural one. All revolutions have been forced upon economies that were just not ready for it, and then exported to countries that were even less prepared for it. These countries hadn't even passed through the socialist stage... in fact they hadn't even passed through the capitalist stage (and no-one has yet). But Russia thought that the height of capitalism was the industrial revolution and mechanics... and that was all still a very naive and infant capitalism and nowhere near to the point it must evolve to spark real social revolution. A real communist revolution will not need vanguard groups of intellectuals to educate the working classes... the working classes will naturally rise against the oppression of capitalism and will lead the revolution. But capitalism is not finished yet. I'm not a communist but do enjoy it as an ideal and in it's truest sense. But I've many problems with it even then. We'll never see a purely Marxist communism... what I thinkl will replace capitalism will be new economic theories based on socialism and communism but radically different. I predict in the next 30 years that we will have a whole new political and economic philosophy of the left... a left with an actual final goal -- because todays so-called leftist parties seem to have no ideal... no philosophy and so nothing to really inspire people. That's only normal as once they get into power they know they are powerless (if they want to keep that power). 57% of the people pulling you one way and 43% pulling you the other way.... it's natural that all politics in power ends up in the centre.

 

[tuxbox]

What are you guys talking about? Jesus would have been the biggest commie were he to be real.

There is a big miss apprehension by Americans in regards to communism. It's propagandist a reminiscent of the cold war where you had to identified the enemy in clear lines and evil.
Just because you are communist it doesn't mean that you are getting the full Marxist, Stalinist, absolute dictatorial, "I'm going to work you to death in a gulag if you disagree with me", package.
I personally don't see anything wrong with the idea of having a common infrastructure of society shared equally regardless of birth right or economic status, and putting those resources at work together for a common good. I have no problem with trying to balance the economic disparity between classes. I suspect that is part of the appeal of communism and why so many countries adopt it.
However I have a big issue in the way it has been implemented in most countries, which is generally through an unquestioned absolute dictatorial rule, complemented with taught police, oppression of the masses to demand conformity as dictated by the ruling class, and a singe of imperialist expansionist ideology with a monarch wannabe tendencies. Reason why you should hate the political system of most of the countries identifying themselves as communist. The problem is not the communist part, it's the absolute dictatorship complemented with systems of oppression part.

Communism is not what is evil, how you get to communism is what is evil. I'm against revolution just because someone hates Capitalism. Killing people is not cool!

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That being said, how do you figure Christ would have been the biggest commie? Nothing in his teachings even point to communism and I'm pretty sure he would have found Marx and Engels' Communist Manifesto evil.