Burn a Koran day

[ImprobableJoe]

I won't burn my Koran, I want to read it and see what all the fuss is about; books shouldn't be burnt, they should be read, discused and given to the next generation so they too can make up their minds.

Also insulting muslims doesn't seem to bring the best in them so instead of insulting them why not debate them?

Forgive me for taking advantage of your post to make a larger point...

You're all over the right territory, when you talk about what people should do.

Everything I'm saying has to do with what people must do, not what they should do. People should read books and not burn them. People also have the right to burn books instead of reading them. People should engage in debates, but they also have the right to just tell other people that they are wrong.

 

[lrkun]

I won't burn my Koran, I want to read it and see what all the fuss is about; books shouldn't be burnt, they should be read, discused and given to the next generation so they too can make up their minds.

Also insulting muslims doesn't seem to bring the best in them so instead of insulting them why not debate them?

Your way of thinking is most reasonable, unlike some, because you chose to understand rather than ignore the issue.

How do you hope to argue/debate with a muslim?

 

[Nemesiah]

I won't burn my Koran, I want to read it and see what all the fuss is about; books shouldn't be burnt, they should be read, discused and given to the next generation so they too can make up their minds.

Also insulting muslims doesn't seem to bring the best in them so instead of insulting them why not debate them?

Forgive me for taking advantage of your post to make a larger point...

You're all over the right territory, when you talk about what people should do.

Everything I'm saying has to do with what people must do, not what they should do. People should read books and not burn them. People also have the right to burn books instead of reading them. People should engage in debates, but they also have the right to just tell other people that they are wrong.

You are correct I have the right to burm my koran, I could burn my koran I won't (that is my right too) I have the right to read it and tink about it.

I don't agree with Burn a Koran day (or draw mohamed day for that matter) more for the hostility of the gesture than anything else really; also I don't like burning (or throwing away) books, If I don't like them I try to give them away so they may be enjoyed by some one else.

you are right though when it comes to burning a piece of your property you have the right to do it as long as you don't endanger other or their stuff and dont try to claim the insurance latter

 

[Nemesiah]

I won't burn my Koran, I want to read it and see what all the fuss is about; books shouldn't be burnt, they should be read, discused and given to the next generation so they too can make up their minds.

Also insulting muslims doesn't seem to bring the best in them so instead of insulting them why not debate them?

Your way of thinking is most reasonable, unlike some, because you chose to understand rather than ignore the issue.

How do you hope to argue/debate with a muslim?

First I will read the koran (as I'm doing with the bible so I can speak from reason and not from supositions or misconceptions)

Second I would like to find some muslim people whi woould like to debate the Idea (runing into a moske and shouting there is no alah and runnig out is not a debate)

Third I would try to do it in a clm fashion, because when religions are concerned tempers tend to get risen rappidly

 

[ImprobableJoe]

You are correct I have the right to burm my koran, I could burn my koran I won't (that is my right too) I have the right to read it and tink about it.

I don't agree with Burn a Koran day (or draw mohamed day for that matter) more for the hostility of the gesture than anything else really; also I don't like burning (or throwing away) books, If I don't like them I try to give them away so they may be enjoyed by some one else.

you are right though when it comes to burning a piece of your property you have the right to do it as long as you don't endanger other or their stuff and dont try to claim the insurance latter

Hey, that's all I'm saying here... I won't burn a book, and you won't burn a book. Some other guy could burn a book, and he has a right to do it, and then we have a right to call him all sorts of names for being a book-burner.

 

[Andiferous]

Well, DMD proported to support freedom of speech and expression (and was described earlier as a "creative" endeavour.)

As I mentioned earlier, I see "burn a book day" as a symbolic sort of censorship, which is actually counter to the idea that spawned DMD. Instead of justifying it by "freedom of speech" it's actually quite the opposite.

To argue that burning a book is a kind of free speech in itself is giving it far too much credit, methinks. It's also important to know what exactly that speech is saying, if the expression is indeed a kind of speech. Is it saying that the Quran is wrong and ought to be censored?

Not that I endorse either; just pointing out why those who support both may be hypocritical.

With that, my piece is finished.

 

[borrofburi]

Well, DMD proported to support freedom of speech and expression (and was described earlier as a "creative" endeavour.)

As I mentioned earlier, I see "burn a book day" as a symbolic sort of censorship, which is actually counter to the idea that spawned DMD. Instead of justifying it by "freedom of speech" it's actually quite the opposite.

To argue that burning a book is a kind of free speech in itself is giving it far too much credit, methinks. It's also important to know what exactly that speech is saying, if the expression is indeed a kind of speech. Is it saying that the Quran is wrong and ought to be censored?

Not that I endorse either; just pointing out why those who support both may be hypocritical.

With that, my piece is finished.

I disagree, it's certainly a form of free speech. I think it says "I hate islam", but that's protected speech as well.

I agree that it's "symbolic censorship", in that the act they are communicating is "we wish we could burn all of these books", and I find it extra despicable in that their free speech is essentially "we don't like the free speech of muslims", but I think it is (and indeed should be) protected speech. Though an interesting question that would make me uncertain is if they *did* have the last one, and if they did rightfully own it, and they desired to burn it, should we allow that or should we intervene?

(and I'm wondering if Joe ever understood where, precisely, I lie... I guess he came to be of the opinion we were merely disagreeing on wording (and not on any fundamentally different opinion), which is probably true)

 

[ImprobableJoe]

(and I'm wondering if Joe ever understood where, precisely, I lie... I guess he came to be of the opinion we were merely disagreeing on wording (and not on any fundamentally different opinion), which is probably true)

I got the impression that we disagreed mostly on the definition of the word "censorship", but not on any fundamental aspect of what should and should not be considered to be protected free speech. There were things that you would consider "censorship" that I do not, but I think our ideas of what should and should not be allowed under the umbrella of "freedom of speech" probably match up pretty closely.

 

[DepricatedZero]

Is it saying that the Quran is wrong and ought to be censored?

I think an argument could be made to censor the Torah and all subsequent works(the Qur'an and Bible) on the basis of it inciting violence.

 

[Nautyskin]

Re: It's Blasphemous NOT To Burn The Koran

I don't wish to illustrate an exercise of futility.

So you can't. That's fine.

The point is that there are no boundaries to what a religion may consider blasphemous, and that there's no reason why one person's blasphemy cannot be another's religious imperative.

Back on topic

Koran Burning Day's an idea composed of supreme fuckwittery and I see it doing nothing but damage to Muslim/Non-Muslim relations everywhere.... but ... as a number of posters have already noted, people certainly do have the right to do whatever they want with their own property.

Now, a little off-track

Something I was wondering was .. how, exactly, is a "Koran" in this instance defined? If I were to scratch the entire story into pieces of toast, then destroy that toast, would this be blasphemous, or does it have to be written on a certain composition of structured atoms? A Muslim's own definition here would be great

 

[Story]

Re: It's Blasphemous NOT To Burn The Koran

Something I was wondering was .. how, exactly, is a "Koran" in this instance defined? If I were to scratch the entire story into pieces of toast, then destroy that toast, would this be blasphemous, or does it have to be written on a certain composition of structured atoms? A Muslim's own definition here would be great

I used to be Muslim ^^

The interesting thing about Islam is that there are no actual rules in the Quran or Hadith about how to treat the Quran. This is because when Muhammed was alive it wasn't compiled into book form. Care know how it was compiled according to the most reliable Muslim traditions? On lamb bones... yes, bones, rocks and leaves and then put in a bag. It didn't have the same respect it has today...

Scratching the Quran onto a toast seems perfectly fine according to Hadith. I actually don't see the harm in burning it either. The whole concept is emotionally offensive, not religiously. Nevertheless many Muslims believe that the book is a sacred item that shouldn't so much have any other book on top of it. This is more of a cultural respect that Muslims have for the book, which was probably originally practiced in order to preserve the rare book forms of the Quran in the 8th century when it was transferred from the bones and leaves.

How do you hope to argue/debate with a muslim?

Isn't it a little bit unfair to say that? I was Muslim when I came to this forum. Praying 5 times a day and fasting for 30 days of Ramadan, never missed a day. Members here argued/debated with me and I did research and changed my mind on the whole theism subject.

 

[Nemesiah]

Re: It's Blasphemous NOT To Burn The Koran

Something I was wondering was .. how, exactly, is a "Koran" in this instance defined? If I were to scratch the entire story into pieces of toast, then destroy that toast, would this be blasphemous, or does it have to be written on a certain composition of structured atoms? A Muslim's own definition here would be great

I used to be Muslim ^^

The interesting thing about Islam is that there are no actual rules in the Quran or Hadith about how to treat the Quran. This is because when Muhammed was alive it wasn't compiled into book form. Care know how it was compiled according to the most reliable Muslim traditions? On lamb bones... yes, bones, rocks and leaves and then put in a bag. It didn't have the same respect it has today...

Scratching the Quran onto a toast seems perfectly fine according to Hadith. I actually don't see the harm in burning it either. The whole concept is emotionally offensive, not religiously. Nevertheless many Muslims believe that the book is a sacred item that shouldn't so much have any other book on top of it. This is more of a cultural respect that Muslims have for the book, which was probably originally practiced in order to preserve the rare book forms of the Quran in the 8th century when it was transferred from the bones and leaves.

How do you hope to argue/debate with a muslim?

Isn't it a little bit unfair to say that? I was Muslim when I came to this forum. Praying 5 times a day and fasting for 30 days of Ramadan, never missed a day. Members here argued/debated with me and I did research and changed my mind on the whole theism subject.

Isn't it a little bit unfair to say that? I was Muslim when I came to this forum. Praying 5 times a day and fasting for 30 days of Ramadan, never missed a day. Members here argued/debated with me and I did research and changed my mind on the whole theism subject.

It IS unfair to portray all muslims as incoherent and rabid fundamentalists; the same goes to portray all americans as greedy and murderous money whores or to potray all christians as slacked jawed creationists; however predjudice (according to Cordelia Fine's "A Mind of its own") is prety much a built in mechanism that alows the brain to clump stuff together and then build quick easy to realize reactions instead of having to analize every situation which could be potentialy deadly. This "instinct" however is despicable in today's society and should be fought at all times.

In the western world however muslims are portrayed only as murderous fanatics that make child bombs; our media indoctrinates us to percieve the murdering of muslims by american, english and spanish hands as costs of a just war; even in my country the media never shows the attrocities of war commited by american soldiers, only the responses by muslims; this makes it hard for the audience to simpathize with muslims and thus we are not in an uproar towards your situation.

In my country, sadly, better educated doesn't mean free of indoctrinations; due to many factors one of which is the economic disparity and a long love-hate-wishyouweredead relationsip with the united states the upper clasess are indoctrinated by the american media instead of the mexican media which leave them as american wanabe mexican'ts, thus "the rulling class" in mexico has the same convictions as the average american and thinks that democracy is being spread in the middle east.

I don't know anything about islam, that is why I bought a koran so I can read it and I'm trying to inform myself about your history and customs so I can better understand your culture since Islam Is among the most spread religions in the world. I honestly do not know if Islam is mostly composed of fanatics or "moderates"; there are things I don't agree with from the start like the public stonings or the mutilations of women; but most of your culture I just haven't been exposed to.

While I understand that muslims are not about to start lobying in the USA to get "muhamad" day or start spending millions of dollars to put your culture in every hollywood movie portraying them to be lovable quirky people; I believe that it is important for muslims around the world to make it their bussuines to make Islam a palatable Idea for the rest of the world; I'm not saying that they should warp their convictions or culture but honestly, how much simpathy can you get with public beheadings of news reporters.

It is true that the asault on the middle east and Islam is unfair and unjustified, but as long as the perception of the people doesn't change I don't think there will be the public outcry that will drive the political machine to put a stop to the military industrial complex (if indeed it can be stoped)

So to round up: Please be patient with people that don't know what to make of muslims; In our media they are portrayed as monsters and it takes some reflection and to some degree a renounciation of some key parts of our culture (The media lies, Mr TV is not my friend, the war is unfair, we are the monsters, etc...) to see the truth.

 

[lrkun]

Re: It's Blasphemous NOT To Burn The Koran

I don't wish to illustrate an exercise of futility.

So you can't. That's fine.

The point is that there are no boundaries to what a religion may consider blasphemous, and that there's no reason why one person's blasphemy cannot be another's religious imperative.

Of course I can't force myself to be deluded. Remember you used the word delusion.

Delusion - the act of being deluded - to mislead the mind or judgment of (insert fact/event/opinion).

Consequently, you really need to choose your words wisely, so that you won't be misunderstood.

 

[Andiferous]

Is it saying that the Quran is wrong and ought to be censored?

I think an argument could be made to censor the Torah and all subsequent works(the Qur'an and Bible) on the basis of it inciting violence.

If that were true, that would be a sort of Hate Law. And very unAmerican.