Anyone Else Get This?

[MRaverz]

Lol. No, I'm sorry, that wasn't meant for you. You're not unfair in the least.

It was meant for borrofburi. Gosh, now I feel bad.

Ahh ok, good good lol.

You had me worried there. :lol:

 

[Andiferous]

Ahh ok, good good lol.

You had me worried there. :lol:

That was very unfair of me. :lol:

 

[Jotto999]

I think you make great points, but I find it useful to be careful with this particular one. There's a balance between learning from other people and learning from your own mistakes. If you base all your actions on what other people tell you, then might as well be living theirs.

I find it can be a tricky balance, between watching others and learning from them, and becoming an opinion-sellout, halting your own conjectures. Although I emphasized acceptance to the fact that we can be wrong, I should say that I am definitely in favour of your own conjectures, and though the opinions of others should always be useful to you, only adopt their opinions if it makes sense to you, and your conjectures should never be mitigated simply by differing opinions.

I find it's probably good advice to not be afraid to make mistakes, because this is part of living your own life.

I agree. Being afraid of mistakes is counterproductive and useless. We should be cautious of mistakes, but not afraid.

With that said, I think I just told you not to listen to me.

Oh, I'll listen to you, definitely. For me the option is, do I agree?

 

[borrofburi]

I understand what you're saying, but I think you're being very unfair. Singer's post is a thoughtful response to the insecurities in question.

Absolutely, hence the disclaimer noting I was very much being unfair. It's also why my response to him had a bunch of "I agree and diagree because" sort of statements, because i do: I agree the insecurities are common and necessary (if you don't have them, then you're probably somewhat arrogant) and natural, but I don't fully agree there's nothing that can be done about them prior to directly experiencing them yourself.

 

[Andiferous]

Absolutely, hence the disclaimer noting I was very much being unfair. It's also why my response to him had a bunch of "I agree and diagree because" sort of statements, because i do: I agree the insecurities are common and necessary (if you don't have them, then you're probably somewhat arrogant) and natural, but I don't fully agree there's nothing that can be done about them prior to directly experiencing them yourself.

Agreed. I find this an interesting topic but very subjective. It's hard to articulate without using personal experience, and hard to discuss and disagree for the same reason.

I find it can be a tricky balance, between watching others and learning from them, and becoming an opinion-sellout, halting your own conjectures. Although I emphasized acceptance to the fact that we can be wrong, I should say that I am definitely in favour of your own conjectures, and though the opinions of others should always be useful to you, only adopt their opinions if it makes sense to you, and your conjectures should never be mitigated simply by differing opinions.

That's an interesting point, and likewise I advocate a certain balance (in my own experience, I've tended to listen and avoid doing. I'm not sure if it's due to an overemphasis on cerebralism over the years, but I suspect that's part of it). It does raise the question though, if everyone were horribly arrogant and opinionated and no one listened to anyone else's opinions, who could hear them?

With that said, I think I just told you not to listen to me.

Oh, I'll listen to you, definitely. For me the option is, do I agree?

Fair enough.

 

[PatrickTheScienceGuy]

i have no idea what this is like as i have a switch in my brain that i can flick that when im with my friends that arnt like that and i can fit in eaisly. does anyone else have my ability to change their personality at will and change the very way they think?

 

[obsidianavenger]

i have no idea what this is like as i have a switch in my brain that i can flick that when im with my friends that arnt like that and i can fit in eaisly. does anyone else have my ability to change their personality at will and change the very way they think?

something like this happens to me- but i don't think about it i just switch...

unfortunately though i still retain the presence of mind to judge myself at the same time

in general i think experience is really the best solution, but i agree with borrofburi in that you can learn that certain things don't work and why they don't from observing others. you don't *have* to make all the same mistakes they do, you don't *have* to reinvent the wheel... you can give yourself a head start

 

[5810Singer]

in general i think experience is really the best solution, but i agree with borrofburi in that you can learn that certain things don't work and why they don't from observing others. you don't *have* to make all the same mistakes they do, you don't *have* to reinvent the wheel... you can give yourself a head start

I'm certainly not advocating an "experience only" approach to life, but the fact remains that there are certain situations where each individual is required to invent their own wheel, and having kids is the best and most obvious example of that.

Becoming a parent is a very common formative adult experience, and at the same it's one of the most miraculous experiences an adult can have.

No matter how accurately you've learned from observation of other parents you will face your first night at home with your newborn........there is your tiny, tiny infant, so vulnerable, so fragile, so utterly unable to communicate or understand.
Will it stop breathing? It does happen...
Will it get ill?
It's soooo tiny, will you be too heavy handed and hurt it?

And then once the immediate worries die down slightly, it'll hit you that you're going to be feeling this way for the rest of your life.......

You will be terrified.

From the point of view of your life so far having children isn't a function, it isn't an experience,....it is a paradigm shift, a sea-change,.....you will be permanently altered in ways that you can't appreciate until it's happened to you,.....
And it's different for everyone,......you will have to "re-invent the wheel", because noone else's "wheel" will fit.

 

[obsidianavenger]

in general i think experience is really the best solution, but i agree with borrofburi in that you can learn that certain things don't work and why they don't from observing others. you don't *have* to make all the same mistakes they do, you don't *have* to reinvent the wheel... you can give yourself a head start

I'm certainly not advocating an "experience only" approach to life, but the fact remains that there are certain situations where each individual is required to invent their own wheel, and having kids is the best and most obvious example of that.

Becoming a parent is a very common formative adult experience, and at the same it's one of the most miraculous experiences an adult can have.

No matter how accurately you've learned from observation of other parents you will face your first night at home with your newborn........there is your tiny, tiny infant, so vulnerable, so fragile, so utterly unable to communicate or understand.
Will it stop breathing? It does happen...
Will it get ill?
It's soooo tiny, will you be too heavy handed and hurt it?

And then once the immediate worries die down slightly, it'll hit you that you're going to be feeling this way for the rest of your life.......

You will be terrified.

From the point of view of your life so far having children isn't a function, it isn't an experience,....it is a paradigm shift, a sea-change,.....you will be permanently altered in ways that you can't appreciate until it's happened to you,.....
And it's different for everyone,......you will have to "re-invent the wheel", because noone else's "wheel" will fit.

upfront, i have no idea what its like to raise a child (hopefully i will never find out ). but i do know that certain behaviors in relation to children tend to have certain results. take spanking for example- good idea bad idea? research correlates spanking, and corporal punishment in general, with negative developmental traits and behaviors. ergo, to be avoided.

or say your parents spoke to you in a way that you found extremely dismissive and frustrating when you were young- you know to communicate with your children in a different way if you want to avoid that particular error.

the experience of being a parent can only be had by being a parent. rather like any experience. but there are things you can do to prepare so it doesn't take you *completely* by surprise.

 

[5810Singer]

QUESTION TO ALL:


What is the real problem with what I've said?

I haven't said that learning through observation is undesirable, I haven't said that you will always be wrong until you've had a certain experience yourself.......

The point I made is that people who have had experience of a certain situation aren't going to lend too much weight to the opinions of someone who has never experienced said situation.

Anyone find that hard to believe or accept?
Anyone find anything to argue with?



I think a certain amount of immaturity is showing in some quarters,......brush those chips off your shoulders guys, they're not attractive.

 

[obsidianavenger]

i actually had no "problem" with what you said, i was just adding my thoughts on the matter.

this isn't a case of YOU HAVE TO LISTEN TO ME BECAUSE I AM RIGHT STOP TELLING ME I CAN'T KNOW ANYTHING BECAUSE I AM YOUNG

and i didn't detect any YOU ARE WRONG BECAUSE YOU ARE YOUNG from your quarter either.

so... who's being immature, and how?

 

[creativesoul]

The difference between experiencing 'an event' and reading about another's experience of 'an event' is HUGE. Anothers words are preprocessed and often opinionated. First hand experience is not preprocessed. However, to dismiss another's point of view simply because they have not actually had the experience in question is foolish. I mean, doesn't that approach necessarily dismiss the written history of language in lieu of first-hand experience?

It seems to me that the question of dependability/value regarding learning from direct experience vs. learning through language alone is being polarized a little too much. It is extremely relative to the topic at hand.

 

[5810Singer]

so... who's being immature, and how?

As to who, I'm not going to name names, just like I didn't the first time.

As to how...
Isn't it immature to refute points I never made, and to disagree with opinions I never espoused, and do not hold?
Doesn't it constitute a form of strawman argument?

I'm pretty sure it does, and it certainly is immature.

 

[obsidianavenger]

to purposely do so maybe. but it seems more likely that if anything you were misunderstood.

 

[5810Singer]

to purposely do so maybe. but it seems more likely that if anything you were misunderstood.

Purposely or not it's immature, and realising that I was misunderstood I posted again in an attempt to narrow the focus of my point, and thus give it greater clarity.......which was also misunderstood,...apparently.

 

[obsidianavenger]

i'm sorry but thats bs. how can it be immature to misunderstand someone when its just as likely that person was being unclear to begin with? do mature people read minds? lol

 

[5810Singer]

i'm sorry but thats bs. how can it be immature to misunderstand someone when its just as likely that person was being unclear to begin with? do mature people read minds? lol

Reading something into someone elses words that just isn't there, isn't implied, and can't even be inferred is immature wether you do it deliberately or not.

In fact I'll take it further than that,....reading alternative meanings into an explicitly and clearly worded message requires either an insulting level of inattention, or a juvenile level of preconception.

If people can't be bothered to read the words of others properly, and if they further insert wholly inappropriate meanings into the words of others with no logical reason to do so, then yes,...they are being immature wether or not their actions are deliberate.






Side note: An awful lot of immature behaviour is lacking in purpose if you think about it. Think about a kindergarten,....most of the behaviour there is both immature and unpurposeful.

 

[obsidianavenger]

Reading something into someone elses words that just isn't there, isn't implied, and can't even be inferred is immature wether you do it deliberately or not.

In fact I'll take it further than that,....reading alternative meanings into an explicitly and clearly worded message requires either an insulting level of inattention, or a juvenile level of preconception.

If people can't be bothered to read the words of others properly, and if they further insert wholly inappropriate meanings into the words of others with no logical reason to do so, then yes,...they are being immature wether or not their actions are deliberate.

unfortunately, just because what you say seems 100% clear to you it probably is not to other people. this only makes any sense if you presuppose that you have been entirely 100% clear and that your words don't have any unforeseen implications. given that everyone has slightly different connotations attached to every word, nevermind that they don't have your exact thoughts in your head so they don't know exactly what you are trying to imply with each one, that is almost impossible.

please read what you wrote. seriously. "anyone who misunderstands me is obviously immature or stupid". now imagine if someone else said that to you. how does that sound?






Side note: An awful lot of immature behaviour is lacking in purpose if you think about it. Think about a kindergarten,....most of the behaviour there is both immature and unpurposeful.[/quote]

 

[Andiferous]

Reading something into someone elses words that just isn't there, isn't implied, and can't even be inferred is immature wether you do it deliberately or not.

In fact I'll take it further than that,....reading alternative meanings into an explicitly and clearly worded message requires either an insulting level of inattention, or a juvenile level of preconception.

If people can't be bothered to read the words of others properly, and if they further insert wholly inappropriate meanings into the words of others with no logical reason to do so, then yes,...they are being immature wether or not their actions are deliberate.

unfortunately, just because what you say seems 100% clear to you it probably is not to other people. this only makes any sense if you presuppose that you have been entirely 100% clear and that your words don't have any unforeseen implications. given that everyone has slightly different connotations attached to every word, nevermind that they don't have your exact thoughts in your head so they don't know exactly what you are trying to imply with each one, that is almost impossible.

please read what you wrote. seriously. "anyone who misunderstands me is obviously immature or stupid". now imagine if someone else said that to you. how does that sound?

At the risk of being rude and jumping in somewhere where I'm not wanted (which I suppose I am already doing), I believe Singer is refering to exactly that kind of assumption (ie: that 'anyone who understands me is obviously mature or stupid' which is a paraphrase that overlooks his context and underlying meaning). With that said, probably the best way to reply when not in 100% understanding is probably to clarify the point of contention, rather that to react without fully absorbing the meaning and context. But if I'm wrong feel free to take me to task. I'm wrong all the time, and I admit it freely.

 

[obsidianavenger]

At the risk of being rude and jumping in somewhere where I'm not wanted (which I suppose I am already doing), I believe Singer is refering to exactly that kind of assumption (ie: that 'anyone who understands me is obviously mature or stupid' which is a paraphrase that overlooks his context and underlying meaning). With that said, probably the best way to reply when not in 100% understanding is probably to clarify the point of contention, rather that to react without fully absorbing the meaning and context. But if I'm wrong feel free to take me to task. I'm wrong all the time, and I admit it freely.

i am perfectly open to clarification, but i see no reason to ask "is that what you mean?" everytime i post something. obviously, if thats not what they meant they will say so. i thought it was implied.

plus if you read what he actually wrote: "reading alternative meanings into an explicitly and clearly worded message requires either an insulting level of inattention, or a juvenile level of preconception."

i think my version is actually milder.

and the "explicitly and clearly worded message" bit *is* a huge assumption- that everyone's mind works exactly like his does.

perhaps i was mocking him slightly but i was frustrated by his attitude. and if i totally missed the point he is free to clarify