age limits

[ahdkaw]

Those numbers can be somewhat deceptive...

Lets say for arguments sake that everyone starts learning to drive at 16, and if 10% of drives die between the age of 16-18, but that number drops down to 1% for 18+, that doesn't mean that those people are necessarily less responsible that 18+ year olds, but could just as easily be that they have gained valuable driving experience that is now helping them prevent accidents. This would be revealed if the age was then raised to 18 and a high fatality rate was maintained around 18-20.

Yeah, it's a very tricky situation, but there is absolutely no way of finding out the results without changing the age limit. Or perhaps, look to other countries that have already implemented the same age limit.

I also question how effective drilling into them fatality rates would be in making them responsible, I think a greater worry is passengers pushing for them to behave recklessly. I also question how much is achieved by pushing the smoking age to 18, but at least it seems consistant with alcohol (ie letting you smoke at 16 but not drink seems stupid).

I don't think "drilling them" would help either. But they need to be made aware that they are driving a killing machine and they deserve respect and care. Perhaps driving lessons should match those used in Finland, which includes handbrake turns in the wet, and many other what are called "advanced driving skills" in the standard test.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Yeah, it's a very tricky situation, but there is absolutely no way of finding out the results without changing the age limit. Or perhaps, look to other countries that have already implemented the same age limit.

Is it possible to consider the reasons that the ages have been set in the first place? Or are we to assume that the laws that are in place are only there because of mean old people trying to stick it to the youts?

 

[WolfAU]

Theres plenty of laws that have no good reason, and alot of laws are there for ageist reasons; an example would be old white guy with hot teenage daughter, pissing himself with the realisation that she'll be sneaking off to parties etc and as such making unjust and unenforceable laws to reassure themselves.. this was likely the case with a recent attempt to increase taxes on pre-mixed drinks in Australia (the daughter of one of the politicians who had the idea had a bit of a reputation).

Generally the attitude of adults is to stick kids in some kind of padded cage for 18 years and assume at the other end a mature, well adjusted individual will emerge. What I'm saying is children need some experience with alcohol while their young to make responsible choices as an adult.

Besides, that statement ('assume the decision was a good one') adds nothing; even in the face of frequent signs of politician incompetance, it doesn't say that this is how the laws should be now, it doesn't address the issue that so many countries have different laws, it doesn't address underlying issues (ie why kids want to binge drink), it doesn't say that maybe we can improve on those laws based on new technology or evidence, and it doesn't address the issue that these laws are not enforceable, costly, and arguably unjust. I think this is a bit of a case of America's puritan roots showing; ie in religious views, alcohol leads to other hedonistic pleasures and sins such as pre-marital/extra-marital sex etc... which religion makes quite clear pleasure is sinful, and the ideal society is one that is joyless and opressed with burdenous shame.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Right... because The Man hates you youts, and wants to bring you down. But not you! You'll let out a rebel yell, and get shitfaced behind the high school! That'll show The Man! :lol:

Seriously, though. There's good reasons not to dump alcohol on developing childrens, and good reasons to restrict drinking to those folks who might possibly be old enough to handle it.

 

[lightbulbsun88]

Really? I've never met anyone who was 25, happy, and the same person they were at 21.

I've never met anyone who was 40, happy, and the same person they were at 34. Your point? Do you think there's some magical age where people stop changing mentally and psychologically?

 

[WolfAU]

Re ImprobableJoe: Do you have any REAL arguments? You know, aside from appeal to redicule arguments full of spelling mistakes and bad grammar, or arguments simply stating that reasons for your position exist (without stating them or evidence of their validity) and therefore inferring that they outweigh the reasons to adopt a more moderate stance?

 

[ahdkaw]

Is it possible to consider the reasons that the ages have been set in the first place? Or are we to assume that the laws that are in place are only there because of mean old people trying to stick it to the youts?

By all means, consider these things, but at least provide a constructive argument for your point of view.

 

[Otokogoroshi]

Out of left field here but....

My grandfather had a driving license at age 8 and drove a model T


Joe did have a point on this page and that was that the limits on what you can do based on your age were put in place for a reason. To assume that it's there because old fuddy duddies want to rain on your parade is... immature

Drinking regularly while your brain is still developing is very very very bad for you. If you want me to cite sources I'd be happy to hit up google and grab some... its late though and I don't really feel like backing up something that's almost as well known as 'the world is round' seems trite.

There is no magical age when you are suddenly a mature person who can handle certain things. However different countries put in place age limits that they feel is appropriate. Can't buy smokes till X, can't drive till Y, can't buy liquor till Z. And so on. It would be illogical and take too much time and effort to say... test people to see if they are mature enough to do certain things AND things like drinking just aren't good while your brain is still developing.

Of course I'm not suggesting having a little bit of wine with your dinner, which is common in many countries, will cause kids to become retarded. It takes more regular drinking than that.

 

[ahdkaw]

Joe did have a point on this page and that was that the limits on what you can do based on your age were put in place for a reason. To assume that it's there because old fuddy duddies want to rain on your parade is... immature

I haven't seen anyone posting a defence such as this. Maybe I'm missing something?

 

[Otokogoroshi]

I haven't seen anyone posting a defence such as this. Maybe I'm missing something?

Wolf seemed to be attacking that point. I could be wrong though I'm not in his head!

 

[ahdkaw]

Wolf seemed to be attacking that point. I could be wrong though I'm not in his head!

Ah I see, I'm not so sure that he was. But even I can be wrong from time to time.

The whole idea that laws are made by the elders to place restrictions on youngsters is definitely incorrect anyway. But of course, when has a law ever stopped anyone from breaking it?

 

[COMMUNIST FLISK]

hardly any shops/pubs/clubs enforce the drinking laws properly these days, i recently turned 18 but had recently been buying the odd bottle of magners/vodka etc with no problems. im a responsible drinker but what if i wasn't? those people have failed in thier duty to uphold the law and that could have very bad concequences

 

[Aught3]

Wait, those people who sold you the alcohol are the main problem? That seems a little unfair considering you shouldn't have been buying it in the first place

 

[WolfAU]

Joe did have a point on this page and that was that the limits on what you can do based on your age were put in place for a reason. To assume that it's there because old fuddy duddies want to rain on your parade is... immature

Shall I apply this blind faith to issues of womens rights? Theres no shortage of laws applied out of mindless desire to control, their own fucked up beliefs, and things changing with the times. Just because they were on the books doesn't make them just or as relevent now as they were then, and to question there are people in government who can only be described as ageist is in my mind... immature.

"Drinking regularly while your brain is still developing is very very very bad for you. If you want me to cite sources I'd be happy to hit up google and grab some... its late though and I don't really feel like backing up something that's almost as well known as 'the world is round' seems trite."
Thankyou for being very specific about how and what constitutes heavy consumption, 'during development' and harm. Eating trans fats does too, we don't apply age restrictions to junk food.

"There is no magical age when you are suddenly a mature person who can handle certain things..." Hence why I'm arguing a more moderate stance.

 

[Otokogoroshi]

Shall I apply this blind faith to issues of womens rights? Theres no shortage of laws applied out of mindless desire to control, their own fucked up beliefs, and things changing with the times. Just because they were on the books doesn't make them just or as relevent now as they were then, and to question there are people in government who can only be described as ageist is in my mind... immature.

"Drinking regularly while your brain is still developing is very very very bad for you. If you want me to cite sources I'd be happy to hit up google and grab some... its late though and I don't really feel like backing up something that's almost as well known as 'the world is round' seems trite."
Thankyou for being very specific about how and what constitutes heavy consumption, 'during development' and harm. Eating trans fats does too, we don't apply age restrictions to junk food.

"There is no magical age when you are suddenly a mature person who can handle certain things..." Hence why I'm arguing a more moderate stance.

Well here is a nice page that talks about it:

http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa63/aa63.htm

I don't disagree with you wanted a more moderate stance nor do I really agree to it. It's so difficult to pin point what's the right time to do anything. I'm actually for MORE restrictions for the elderly than there currently are. The fact that you can go 20 years without updating your drivers license is stupid. Granted some states are trying to change this.

Maybe its the sleeping pills talking but you seem snitty


Oh and another link for alcohol and its damage on the brain.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/no-index/physician-resources/9416.shtml

 

[COMMUNIST FLISK]

Wait, those people who sold you the alcohol are the main problem? That seems a little unfair considering you shouldn't have been buying it in the first place

but you see, at least i was being sensible. some kids might not be, and the shopkeepers should keep a watchful eye out (hence why they can have thier alcohol liscence stripped off of them) but they arent as heavily regulated as they should be

 

[WolfAU]

I'm not particularly 'snitty' (though I'm not really familiar with the term, I don't believe it exists down under).

from NIAAA "the age at which he or she first began drinking, and how long he or she has been drinking;" I have seen no real evidence of this either leading to increased chances of alcoholism or dramatically affecting damage, though as I've said, clearly certain ages (such as < 14) do not have as well matured detox systems, meaning they can't drink as much as an adult, I don't think thats the same as increasing damage.

"Drinkers vs. non-drinkers: research findings" Correlation does not imfer causation, stupid people are more likely to drink heavily (ie how many times have I missed out on parties because of assignments and early classes... sigh). Theres also the problem that they don't really classify what constitutes mild and heavy use (ie over 5 standard drinks could be considered heavy use, and even then not factoring in BMI or over what time period, other factors like eating and hydration). I also see no real specific age references on those sites (a brief read through mind you...)

While obviously I'd have to dig deeper into refs for the good stuff, so far I wasn't really seeing much in the way of good science, and theres plenty of bad science around when it is a politically charged topic.

 

[lightbulbsun88]

Drinking regularly while your brain is still developing is very very very bad for you. If you want me to cite sources I'd be happy to hit up google and grab some... its late though and I don't really feel like backing up something that's almost as well known as 'the world is round' seems trite.

Drinking whether your brain is still developing or fully developed is bad for you. Should we ban alcohol altogether?

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Drinking whether your brain is still developing or fully developed is bad for you. Should we ban alcohol altogether?

Depends on your definition of "should."

 

[COMMUNIST FLISK]

Depends on your definition of "should."

? you make no sense at times, there is only one definition and he is simply askin the question.