age limits

[COMMUNIST FLISK]

So, on saturday (23rd may) i turned 18! didnt go out drinking as i had a gig with my orchestra today. however, im going out drinking later in the week (oh dear).

this bring up the topid of age limits.
what are your views? too old/young or just about right.

im talking about all limits for anything (sex, driving, drinking etc)
what are your views?

 

[Aught3]

Age limits are arbitrary but necessary.

 

[Otokogoroshi]

Age limits are arbitrary but necessary.

Agreed.


Here in the States the age for drinking is 21. I'm perfectly fine with it. I think the driving age should be raised a little but that's just 'cause I dislike teens :lol:

I didn't drive till I was 22, still haven't gotten drunk at 27 (though I enjoy occasionally trying exotic beers/wines/ales/meads from around the world and from the past) but I did lose my virginity at 16... lol. So really I was only with the average on one thing.

One of the dumb things I hear some American's say is "So an 18 year old is old enough to die (join the army) but not drink!?" which is stupid because at 18 if you are in the military you can buy liquor on base haha!!!

 

[richi1173]

Its just about right I think.

 

[JacobEvans]

As a youngster myself living in America, I see the negative effects that age limits have on many people. Mainly kids who aren't allowed to drink begin to binge drink once they come of age, because they never learn to respect alcohol. Sex can't really be stopped, and kids smoke all the time, so those are also arbitrary.

 

[richi1173]

As a youngster myself living in America, I see the negative effects that age limits have on many people. Mainly kids who aren't allowed to drink begin to binge drink once they come of age, because they never learn to respect alcohol. Sex can't really be stopped, and kids smoke all the time, so those are also arbitrary.

Maybe we should do like the French and allow kids age 14 and up to start drinking wine, at 18, beer, and at 21, hard liquor?

Although, like it has been mentioned, its completely arbitrary.

 

[JacobEvans]

^I think that is a perfect idea.

 

[Artsysiridean]

Age limits are arbitrary but necessary.

Thread over.

I mean, something could be do-thread over...

Sadly all we can do is con-Thread. Over.

 

[Otokogoroshi]

I should point out that if you drink regularly at a young age (20 to younger) it causes damage to your brain.

 

[Moky]

I think it's just the whole attitude on alcohol. If you make it something forbidden or something that might be like a coming of age thing, kids are going to want it more. I'll use myself as an example. In the states getting your drivers license is a coming of age thing of sorts. I couldn't wait to get it and once I got the license I was happy for a while, but then it wore off. It wasn't anything fantastic. I just fell into the hype of it being something fastastic when it's just another part of life. It's sort of the same with alcohol. Alcohol isn't a big deal at all unless you make it one.

 

[WolfAU]

I agree with the arbitrary but necessary comment, unless society can find a better way. What we want depends on what is required... for something like alcohol you want both the mental maturity to more responsibly use the alcohol, and the physical maturity to be better adapted for it... This also applies to driving, sex, drugs and work and legal contracts...

The problem I have is when we treat them so absolutely, ie a woman 18 and a day is fair game, yet 17 and 9 months is jail-bait, its absurd, especially when the whole goal is (we are told) to protect women until they are mature enough to deal with the responsibilities of sexual relationships, marriage and parenting... when many don't for years after the age of 18, with some never becoming mature enough to handle these.

The most ideal situation would be one of some kind of legal benchmark for an individuals maturity (from tests to sworn statements by individuals ie psychiatric professionals, teachers etc), and a balance of physical factors. In the specific case of sexual relationships, I think a healthier social approach would be for the government to allow it under strict circumstances (ie 14 with certain requirements ie parental knowledge, must be a stable relationship etc) with the government slowly reducing the legal requirements as they age and are seen as more 'mature'.

Also a point is in situations like childhood is if we allowed children to enter the workplace early, in some ways that would starve them of a 'care-free' like childhood, which is generally viewed as important for healthy developement (placing adult burdens on children tends to cripple them). So for that reason saying children can't take serious jobs before 15-16 helps maintain the structure of stages of childhood.

I like the idea that as children get older, they sign documents agreeing to uphold certain laws, and gaining certain rights included in them (ie sign one at 12, one at 14, 16, 18, 21 etc). making laws something we agree to uphold rather than something we're forced to obey by place of birth. This would also allow children to read over what the specific laws are, giving people greater access to what the law is.

Though I do want to say that America should cut the BS about drinking at 21, 18 is the more reasonable age, and the idea that you can go to war, enter binding contracts etc, but not drink is rediculous. To respond to Otokogoroshi's comment about buying it on base, that is in some ways besides the point, as since we are in a society which dictates so much based purely on age, they say you're not mature enough to deal with alcohol, but are with the issue of wielding deadly weapons in a foreign country with the lives of civilians, enemy compatants and your allies at stake... but not buy a single drink... fucking absurd! If they made it from 16 you could buy a tiny bit of alcohol and had to drink it on premis, fair enough, but you can't buy ANY. Also all drinking causes some damage, saying it causes 'slightly more' is hardly a compelling argument... especially when this restriction encourages alot of problems (a stronger 'underground' binge drinking culture, where there are no responsible individuals leading to other problems like drugs, unsafe sex etc).

I think many parents should take the route my parents did, and that was from the age of 12 or 13 onward, allow for small amounts of alcohol on special occasions, it indicates trust and helps people ease into the change which I think helps the person take a more mature attitude, preventing abuse later. Also if its at age 21 you can't drink for alot of years in college, compared to Australia where almost everyone can... completely changing the feel of college and in my mind for the worse.

 

[COMMUNIST FLISK]

so we are in favour of the age limits.
my second question of sorts was. do we agree with the bar that has been set? or are there any age limits that need to be lowered/raised?

 

[lolx0rz]

Here in oz (that's Australia for those who dont know)
many kids have at the least one drink by the time they are 12 myself included, this is because alchohol is viewed as socially acceptable and readily available this leads to many people drinking as a way of seeming rebellious or mature in their own eyes just because their 18y'o brothers/sisters binge drink like there is no tommorow as they haven't learnt how to drink in a reasonable ammount (or out of plain idiocy) whilst i may be young i do know my limits as i do drink occasionally and keep my friends in check if they are in a stupor.

essentially the drinking age should be whatever the general public/government (depending on where you live) decides upon and should really make sure the "booze" is'nt going to kids who will abuse it.

 

[COMMUNIST FLISK]

Here in oz (that's Australia for those who dont know)
many kids have at the least one drink by the time they are 12 myself included, this is because alchohol is viewed as socially acceptable and readily available this leads to many people drinking as a way of seeming rebellious or mature in their own eyes just because their 18y'o brothers/sisters binge drink like there is no tommorow as they haven't learnt how to drink in a reasonable ammount (or out of plain idiocy) whilst i may be young i do know my limits as i do drink occasionally and keep my friends in check if they are in a stupor.

essentially the drinking age should be whatever the general public/government (depending on where you live) decides upon and should really make sure the "booze" is'nt going to kids who will abuse it.

so what your suggesting is more of a "moral" limit as opposed to an "age" limit..
hmm it could work in some way i feel. but how would one get tested on ones morality?

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I think the drinking age should be raised to 25, and anyone supplying alcohol to someone under that age should go to jail for 5 years of hard labor.

 

[COMMUNIST FLISK]

I think the drinking age should be raised to 25, and anyone supplying alcohol to someone under that age should go to jail for 5 years of hard labor.

good idea

 

[ImprobableJoe]

good idea

Probably not a workable idea...

 

[COMMUNIST FLISK]

yeah i know what you mean... why is ethanol so addictive?

 

[WolfAU]

re lolx0rz: I think its a bit of a mistake to try to simply catagorize such a complex social problem as binge drinking... and while not wanting to go too off the topic of age limits, there was some interesting points raised between myself and a psych honours student in college on this topic.

1. Rebellion is obviously a factor
2. Social acceptance another (ie a desire to be accepted and alcohol is seen as a way of proving your 'one of the guys').
3. The areas where there is likely to be heavy binge drinking serve other social roles (ie bars and parties allow people to socialise, relax and hook up romantically), leading to alcohol being consumed simply to fit in.
4. Many cultures see it as part of a 'rite of passage', particularly in Australia where your 18th party is seen as needing to be the thing of legends (mine sucked, I was sick that day so I took it pretty easy).
5. Psychological associations (ie alcohol being connected with sex/romance and pleasure in general, socialising, social euphoria, relaxation, escapism etc.
6. Alcohol is used as a catalyst for many natural processes (ie we cannot mentally survive being mature and responsible 24/7, we need that kind of psychological release, alcohol can aid in that, but it kinda becomes like something like viagra or sleeping pills... using it too often can harm your ability to undergo those processes naturally (with many people I know who don't drink able to effortlessly shift between 'work' and 'play' modes).
7. The 'artistic' factor; that alot of people actually like the change alcohol brings about in them (increased creativity, charisma, reduced social inhibitions etc).
8. Its kinda addictive, but I know very few people with whom I think that is a factor, I think addiction kicks in mostly with people who have psychological problems or prone to addiction and dependancy.
- Part of it is hollywood's fault and media in general (Australia has more access to alcohol, and we get your 'teen movie' bs over here, combine the too and its like a match to gasoline).

A good question is 'what is it we desire in situations where we drink (parties, watching sports etc) and what do we gain from it?'

"essentially the drinking age should be whatever the general public/government decides upon... "
Yes and no, there are obviously psychological and physical benchmarks that should be the main consideration that would be near identical between societies.

Re COMMUNIST FLISK: I think I answered your question (re what should be changed) in the before post. I am in favour of a more lax approach, with society allowing teenagers increased social freedoms and responsibilities over time.

"so what your suggesting is more of a "moral" limit as opposed to an "age" limit..
hmm it could work in some way i feel. but how would one get tested on ones morality? "
This requires a more smaller scale approach, and really wouldn't be practical in large cities. In the case of alcohol like I raised a possibility is allowing kids to drink one or two drinks within a bar or party and keeping tabs on how much they've had. I think a real problem is societies create absolute laws that no one can be expected to follow so they're ignored, whereas if they were more reasonable alot of people would follow them I believe even if they were essentially uninforceable.

 

[richi1173]

I think many parents should take the route my parents did, and that was from the age of 12 or 13 onward, allow for small amounts of alcohol on special occasions, it indicates trust and helps people ease into the change which I think helps the person take a more mature attitude, preventing abuse later. Also if its at age 21 you can't drink for alot of years in college, compared to Australia where almost everyone can... completely changing the feel of college and in my mind for the worse.

I completely agree. My parents started teaching me about alcohol early - like when I was 13 and 14. Now, the best that I drink is wine with some beer on the side.

At 14, we should allow people to buy and consume wine but not beer without parental consent.

At 18, we should allow people to buy and consume their own beer, but not hard liquor without parental consent.

At 21, we should allow people to buy and consume all the kinds of alcohol.

The idea that people should not consume any alcohol even with parental consent until one is 21 is just bullshit.