age limits

[ImprobableJoe]

? you make no sense at times, there is only one definition and he is simply askin the question.

Really? It wasn't complicated at all. If the question is "would it be better if alcohol didn't exist" the answer is clearly "yes." If it is a more practical question about whether absolute prohibition would work, the answer is "no."

 

[GoodKat]

[If the question is "would it be better if alcohol didn't exist" the answer is clearly "yes."

Just wondering, but did you have a traumatic experience with alcohol?

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Just wondering, but did you have a traumatic experience with alcohol?

Not particularly... but I've seen the effects of an environment where underage drinking is allowed, encouraged, and even supervised to a limited degree. Even with friends and mentors to guide and watch out for you, it tends to turn out badly.

I like drinking, I'm drinking a beer right now. If I knew for a fact that giving up my ability to enjoy beer would prevent the things I've seen, I would be the first person to outlaw drinking for everyone including myself.

 

[COMMUNIST FLISK]

Really? It wasn't complicated at all. If the question is "would it be better if alcohol didn't exist" the answer is clearly "yes." If it is a more practical question about whether absolute prohibition would work, the answer is "no."

no, if it was that the question would be should alcohol have been invented in the first place?

his question was should we ban it all together

there is a clear differance between exsisting/inventing and banning

 

[WolfAU]

"Not particularly... but I've seen the effects of an environment where underage drinking is allowed, encouraged..."
I would say a greater social focus should be on improving those situations rather than on trying to restrict access to alcohol... ie when I went to a friends 18th, I had to pass by a goddamn sniffer dog, rediculous (especially considering it was invite only...) but at least there is a clear benefit that it reduces some of the potential harm. If you make it more socially acceptable to drink, but less socially acceptable for parents to permit unsupervised drinking, alot of harm would be undone (as with current laws, usually the best legal stance for parents is blissful ignorance).

Also again I think you're making the mistake of seeing what happens while drunk as being caused by alcohol, as I mentioned before, teens often drink when they plan to do stupid shit.

Also another problem with simply stating that an adolescents ability to drink is 'less on average' than an adult, raises the issue of banning women from drinking for similar reasons (lower average BMI etc).

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I would say a greater social focus should be on improving those situations.

Yes, in magic fairy-tale land. In the meanwhile, lowering the drinking age so that more teenagers have access to alcohol? That's the exact opposite of a sane or rational answer.

 

[lightbulbsun88]

Yes, in magic fairy-tale land.

Improving situations can only happen in magic fairy-tale land?

 

[lightbulbsun88]

I think making alcohol illegal under a certain age definitely prods more teenagers to drink out of rebellion. Take away the age limit and I bet less people drink than they do now because there's no longer a rebellion factor to it.

 

[WolfAU]

Well how exactly do you think that this is the case...

Alot of teens have access to alcohol, with many able to get enough to supply several people (through adult friends, siblings or lax parents), so the current system does nothing...

What are the harmful effects?
- It polarizes youth, either you're a tee-totaller or you're a layabout, placing stereotypes like that on teens usually makes them feel like 'well since I'm not A I must be B'.
- Causes things like them joining very harmful cultures like binge drinking groups that have very damaging beliefs they pass on to others (ie anti-social).
- There is also the issue of it lowering the stigma of 'its against the law', if teens realise that alot of laws are bullshit and can be broken easily withut getting caught, this often makes them more likely to engage in more serious anti-social behaviour.
- Telling people there is no reasonable level of alcohol use also polarises, with those who are 'good' drinking no alcohol, and those who are 'bad' feeling they can drink as much as they like since it doesn't matter between 2 SDs and 20.
- Theres the issue that applies to other drugs, that if used with accurate information, careful use in a fairly controlled environment the physical damage and external harm can be greatly reduced, as it stands most drinking is done without supervision, and if something goes wrong alot of teens will feel conflicted about what action to take (ie calling an ambulance will likely lead to them being charged). Addressing this issue means that people would be able to be watched by sober and mature people more often, dramatically reducing the external harm, and reducing excessive drinking.
- And theres the issue that parents abuse alcohol plenty... and prohibition doesn't work. This leads to us essentially having to acknowledge that people need to adopt some personal responsibility for their actions, which the American legal system and American culture kinda destroys, which is toxic for a society.

At this point I feel you haven't really thought through the implications of what you're advocating.

Just a quick example... As i've mentioned my parents slowly allowed me to drink under controlled social situations, including buying me a small amount of alcohol for parties where they would be drinking (say 5-8 standard drinks). I have never had so much to drink I've thrown up, done something I truly regretted (ie a one-night stand), had memory issues etc. On the other hand 3 people I know in college who's parents were strict and never let them touch alcohol, most of them completely overdo it the first time round, as they have no gauge of their limits and have mentally viewed alcohol as this juicy forbidden fruit. Most of these people have become drunk till they vomited, had mental blackouts, done stuff they regretted.

 

[Aught3]

Alot of teens have access to alcohol, with many able to get enough to supply several people (through adult friends, siblings or lax parents), so the current system does nothing...

Except limit accessibility. By making it illegal for liquor stores to sell alcohol to teens the accessibility of the substance is reduced. Yes, they can still get it in other ways, but the amount and ease of access has been reduced. It's similar to marijuana, people still have access but the amount of consumption has drastically reduced since it was made illegal. I don't doubt that if marijuana was made legal again use would increase.

 

[Otokogoroshi]

A LOT of things are bad for us and if you look hard enough you can find compelling evidence to support banning a whole shit ton of things.

Cars kill people so should they be banned?

Smoking gives no benefits and can cause cancer so should they be banned?

Blah blah blah is bad for you so should it be banned?

I kinda didn't feel like pulling more stuff out of my bum.

I do not think for a moment that alcohol should be completely unbanned for any age. To suggest that just because something is against the rules kids will WANT to break the rules is silly. Yes, some kids go out of their way to bend and break any rule they can find. That is not the majority and in fact the biggest reason these kids act out is shitty parenting. So giving them free access to liquor will not make them suddenly no longer interested in it. Alcohol is addictive, fun to drink and some of it tastes just fantastic (mostly the fruity girly drinks ).

 

[WolfAU]

"To suggest that just because something is against the rules kids will WANT to break the rules is silly. "
No, only if its against the rules, desireable, unenforceable or poorly enforced and particularly when parents are free to do so. Especially with alcohol it is associated with pleasure and enjoyment (relaxing, making friends or getting to know friends, finding romantic partners or casual sex, doing crazy stuff you will remember forever etc), again this does turn it into a forbidden fruit of sorts.

Parenting is usually a factor, but parents have influence, not really power. If kids don't give a damn about what their parents thought (me around 14-16) then parenting becomes less of an issue, they can punish them to hell to try to regain control, but that really doesn't tend to achieve anything (short of mightily pissing the teen off). The best thing a parent can do is prepare a child for issues they'll face as an adult, give them some experience of these issues (financial responsibility etc) and teach them how to thing in a sound manner (rather than just 'DRUGS ARE BAD' type arguments).

Alcohol is addictive, sure, but so are plenty of other things, including sugar (seriously, try going a week without anything sweet tasting, you'll go mad). Besides my goal is to not stop teens from being interested in alcohol, but to have a more moderate approach (ie to me the most balanced behaviour is drinking at parties but knowing your limits, ie not going over say 8-10 standard drinks (plus fatty foods and water), which I rarely do, while I've got friends who regularly approach the 15-20 standard drink mark when they party.

Also theres alot of social good that comes from alcohol that you generally won't hear people talk much about. I've met life long friends, girlfriends at alcohol fueled parties, tried new things, they give a great feeling of satisfaction and acceptance etc. Even if a true prohibition was achievable, I think you'd be surprised at just how much we'd be giving up... or at least until we started using other drugs and other social systems to make up for it (which may be more harmful).

 

[Otokogoroshi]

I'm not at all for banning alcohol. It's ineffective and stupid.

I am however very much so against lowering the age limit to below anything 18. 10 drinks in one night? Holy shit man. That's a lot!! And to do that at say... age 14, that can cause actual damage to your brain.

And 20 drinks, that's easily binge drinking with his very unhealthy. Yikes.


I've gone to parties where there was drugs and alcohol and I didn't touch either, it didn't inhibit my ability to make friends in the least, heck at one party I got to make out with a hot cowboy

 

[WolfAU]

3 standard drinks at any age causes 'actual damage to your brain', seriously, you need to quantify how much if you want that to be a persuasive argument. Also it causes actual damage to your liver as well... its kinda hard to live without it, hence the name...

For a then 6 foot (at 16, now 6"2) guy of Irish ancestry and around 78kg, 8 standard drinks is barely tipsy (also I didn't specify over what time period, and most likely eating party foods as well). As I've specified I only drank minor amounts at 14 (ie a glass or two of wine at social events), the first time I actually started to get drunk was really 16. Yeah, I agree that 20 SDs is insane, you can't do that very often without feeling some heavy side effects.

The alcohol/drugs are not a necessary part of the fun, but they kinda are for the party to exist (a catalyst of sorts). Also I think the cultural differences between America and Australia may be a factor here, I think American's are more polarised (ie binge drinkers or tee-totallers) while alot more Australians have moderate approaches (ie the vast majority of people in college drink, but most do so within their limits).

 

[Otokogoroshi]

I actually really like all sorts of liquor. In my fridge right now I've got about four different types of it to chose from. I'm not anti liquor at all, I just think it would be irresponsible to remove the restrictions. Free access to it wont make things better. Banning it wouldn't make things better (banning it gave us the Mafia in the first place!), a more moderate approach is best.

I actually would love to start my own brewery. It's one of my future hopes <3


Here are some quotes:

"Research indicates that the human brain continues to develop into a person's early twenties and that exposure of the developing brain to alcohol may have long-lasting effects on intellectual capabilities."

"Exposing the brain to alcohol during this period (i.e, before age 21) may interrupt key processes of brain development" and "alcohol-induced brain damage may persist."

"The brains and bodies of teens are still developing, and alcohol use can cause learning problems."



Obviously these cases primarily mean binge drinking but most teens don't really consider the consequences of their drinking. I can't give you exact numbers on how many beers = damage because there are way too many factors to consider. Age, weight, amount consumed over time, type of alcohol etc. Removing the restrictions would NOT lower the amount of liquor consumed and I think it would only increase it because it would be far easier to get it.

Yes it has the "I'm breakin' the rules" fun to do it while the law doesn't permit getting it but that ignores the fact that it's fun to do it. You yourself describe the benefits of it, so why would making it easier to get your hands on it be a good thing??

The rules aren't there to rain on your parade but to try to keep people safer, sorta like how crossing the street outside of a crosswalk is illegal in the states. It's primary purpose is to keep the idiots safe.

 

[WolfAU]

re your comments about alcohol damage, I don't think I'm disagreeing with you, I'm just saying that vague statements of 'it does damage' are a little too vague to really give me cause for concern, especially, as I said alot of bad science (misleading, jumping to conclusions, small sample, rushed etc) exists around politically charged topics.

"... so why would making it easier to get your hands on it be a good thing??" Thats not exactly what I'm suggesting, though the advantage is not spending money and police man-hours trying to enforce it. The issues I bring up are the fact that the law is shown to be impotent and laws are often just there for show these are dangerous lessons for teens (they're essentially true, but hopefully they figure this out after they mature out of stupid impulsive behaviours).

Anyway, I'm suggesting a change in our approach and philosophy, if you read my previous comments I'm not suggesting a 14 year old can buy as much alcohol as they want, but lets say, for the purposes of argument...

at 14 I can get a drinking card, these can be swiped at bars and they bring up personal information, this indicates that my parents have consented to me drinking provided it is less than 4 standard drinks per 24hours, and less than 10 per week, and not spirits. Not a perfect idea but I think it gives you the jist of what I'm proposing... it allows parents to allow for teens to consume some alcohol legally without breaking any laws, this also allows for parents to monitor problem behaviour.

And lastly what I'm getting at is focusing less on a faschist attitude of 'you can't because we say so' (which as we've demonstrated, simply doesn't work) and simply goes from 'NONE, ZERO' to on your 18th/21st you can drink as much as your body can stand legally, provided you don't do anything because of it. Replacing this old approach with 'we're giving parents the right to simply say no (or pull the plug if its shown to be problematic, ie exposing addictive behaviour), but also giving them the opportunity to give their children some exposure under controlled conditions'. Again this also changes the philosophy to impress on teens the issue of personal responsibility and greater issues like self respect (ie just because you can drink till you vomit, doesn't mean you should, which as adults, is what keeps us in check, so they have to learn it sooner or later). ie on my wall right now is more than enough alcohol to hospitalise me (1/2 a whisky, 1/2 a bourbon, 3 litre's of cask wine ~ 35 standard drinks), yet I haven't had a drop in 10 days (a college formal event).

Apart from the fact that these laws predate technology that would make the above idea possible, I feel that for some parents this is simply a 'well we don't have to worry about that till he's 18' issue, where they can feel they don't have to address an important issue (ie the same way alot of parents put off talks about sex).

"The rules aren't there to rain on your parade but to try to keep people safer." I'm not sure with what certainty you can claim to know what went through the minds of the lawmakers (other than 'damn this prohibition sucks'), that said I don't believe I'm really arguing that, but I do believe ageism is a factor (ie 'kids are animals and should be locked up in a cage' type thinkers).

 

[Otokogoroshi]

Oh I agree greatly on the fact that most parents don't do their you know.. PARENTAL DUTY and speak to their kid about alcohol, just the same as with sex, drugs, peer pressure etc.

I guess I'm overly optimistic... despite my efforts to be a grumpy nihilist... I'm just too cheerful and positive! So you are right there easily could be a certain amount of ageism involved with these laws. Especially the ones made before the 1970s. Heck back then people were often so backwards thinking its bizarre!!

 

[Gimble]

Instead of focusing on maturity and responsibility, how about the health problems/benefits and psychological problems/benefits?

I do not have links to sources, but there were some studies that showed that brain development continued through the younger 20s and that alcohol (and marijuana) impeded that development. I don't care to spend the time right now to find a source, but just want to throw it out there - feel free to research yourself.

On the other side, alcohol does help some people overcome their inhibitions in a positive manner socially, breaking open new posibilities.

We also know that red wines (and other drinks) can have health benefits for adults.



Unless I missed a valid reason, kids have no benefit from drinking alcohol. Do they really need to free their inhibitions? Sounds a bit dangerous to me and there are already enough sick adults out there that would love to take advantage of younger people under an influence.

 

[WolfAU]

Red wine has some supposed health benefits, but still has the regular problems associated with ethanol... meaning it does some good and some bad. The issue then becomes if we're enforcing laws on it, how much quantifiable good and bad, proportional issues (ie not everyone gains the benefits or the downsides)... in the end it all is revealed to be bullshit, science cannot be expected to draw up such absolute risk/benefit charts.

Also most substances cause some harm, and things like alcohol in the wrong hands continue to cause harm no matter what the age is (ie in your 50's-60's)... there is no safe age to abuse alcohol and saying the damage is MORE, without quantifying how much and associated ages (which neither you, nor any research I've ever read has done), is hardly a compelling argument....

Issues regarding when is the best age for enforceable laws have been (I believe) addressed in previous posts but as above... we must try to balance the issue of enforcing reasonable restrictions on these things (ie to prevent acolohol abuse by young children, ie 10 year olds which was not unheard of around ~1900) with the realisation that you cannot really make enforceable laws last till 21... almost noone in America would have their first drink at age 21, meaning that in essence no one cares about the law, its role is simply in reducing teens access to alcohol and it really fails in that regard as well (as pretty much everyone knows someone who would buy them alcohol). And there are issues of 'forbidden fruit' effects that I've mentioned before as well.

"Unless I missed a valid reason, kids have no benefit from drinking alcohol." Physically, no... socially and emotionally yes, again, I've gone into this in detail in previous posts. Its dangerous to bottle up your desires, the most overt examples of this are when we study societies with high levels of sexual repression.

"There are already enough sick adults out there that would love to take advantage of younger people under an influence." Thats exactly what this is about... if you made it legal for 18 year olds to drink, then teenage parties where there was alcohol would be legal and thus parents could supervise and take precautions against harmful events occuring... as happens in Australia.