A justification for abortion

[ImprobableJoe]

I respectfully disagree.

Well, you're wrong. Problem solved!

Somewhat agree...

Keep working on it, you'll agree with me eventually and then you get to be right!

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Wow, I seriously didn't expect to win that easily!!!!

 

[tuxbox]

Wow, I seriously didn't expect to win that easily!!!!

Hehe, what did you win??

I will concede if someone can prove to me the fetus does not feel pain from the 18th week of gestation on.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Hehe, what did you win??

I will concede if someone can prove to me the fetus does not feel pain from the 18th week of gestation on.

You'll have to define what you mean by "feel pain" and then explain why I should care. There are people who will claim that plants can "feel pain" when you cut them, but I doubt you would suggest that I should stop mowing my lawn or eating corn.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Also, are you a very strict vegan? If not...

 

[tuxbox]

You'll have to define what you mean by "feel pain" and then explain why I should care.

Pain = Physical suffering or discomfort caused by illness or injury.

As for you caring, well that is out of my control.

There are people who will claim that plants can "feel pain" when you cut them, but I doubt you would suggest that I should stop mowing my lawn or eating corn.

I am not a biologist, but I am pretty sure all plants lack a brain. Therefore, it is doubtful that plant life feel anything, much less pain.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

You'll have to define what you mean by "feel pain" and then explain why I should care.

Pain = Physical suffering or discomfort caused by illness or injury.

As for you caring, well that is out of my control.

There are people who will claim that plants can "feel pain" when you cut them, but I doubt you would suggest that I should stop mowing my lawn or eating corn.

I am not a biologist, but I am pretty sure all plants lack a brain. Therefore, it is doubtful that plant life feel anything, much less pain.

...

... which is interesting, because you didn't actually attempt to remotely answer my question. What does it mean to "feel pain" and why should I care? Try again, and actually read all the words, not just the ones that are easy to deal with.


Or the other one, about being vegan?

 

[tuxbox]

... which is interesting, because you didn't actually attempt to remotely answer my question. What does it mean to "feel pain" and why should I care? Try again, and actually read all the words, not just the ones that are easy to deal with.


Or the other one, about being vegan?

I did not think I was being that elusive. I am sure you have felt pain at some point in your life, unless you have CIPA. That said, at the 18th week of gestation, the fetus can hear and move. Which suggests to me it has a working brain and nervous system. Therefore it is probable that it feels pain and/or can suffer. Which is why I oppose abortion during the second trimester and on.

As for the plant question, I guess I am too daft to get it.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I guess my phrasing was wrong. You've mentioned pain, but avoided talking much about the actual feeling of the pain. What we need to differentiate is between having a nervous system and "experiencing" pain. I don't consider reflexive response to stimulus to qualify as experiencing anything.

I ask if you're a vegan because I want to know how much you privilege human pain over animal pain, and then I want you to explain why you make whatever distinction you make.

 

[sgrunterundt]

Does "capable of feeling pain" make something a person? If so most higher animals are persons.

 

[tuxbox]

I guess my phrasing was wrong. You've mentioned pain, but avoided talking much about the actual feeling of the pain. What we need to differentiate is between having a nervous system and "experiencing" pain. I don't consider reflexive response to stimulus to qualify as experiencing anything.

Gotcha.. I guess I would rather side with the probability that the fetus can feel pain and oppose abortion during the second trimester, than to support it. As I have stated before, a fetus born prematurely at 22 weeks can live.

I ask if you're a vegan because I want to know how much you privilege human pain over animal pain, and then I want you to explain why you make whatever distinction you make.

I am omnivorous like most humans. That said, I do not like to see anything suffer including animals. But killing animals for food is a fact of life. Vegans will disagree of course, but many of human babies have died or have become seriously ill on a vegan only diet.

 

[tuxbox]

Does "capable of feeling pain" make something a person? If so most higher animals are persons.

I am not arguing that at all. I am arguing that at a certain point in the gestation process the fetus stops being a fetus and becomes a human being. I believe this to be sometime in the second trimester.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Gotcha.. I guess I would rather side with the probability that the fetus can feel pain and oppose abortion during the second trimester, than to support it. As I have stated before, a fetus born prematurely at 22 weeks can live.



I am omnivorous like most humans. That said, I do not like to see anything suffer including animals. But killing animals for food is a fact of life. Vegans will disagree of course, but many of human babies have died or have become seriously ill on a vegan only diet.

I don't consider what a fetus does to be "feeling" anything. I don't think that the mere presence of a nervous system is enough to create the higher brain function associated with the actual experience of pain.

And we're back to eating fetus again. Round and round we go. If it is edible, it isn't a person.

 

[tuxbox]

I don't consider what a fetus does to be "feeling" anything. I don't think that the mere presence of a nervous system is enough to create the higher brain function associated with the actual experience of pain.

How does a fetus magically become a human being with rights as soon as it is out of the womb, but while it is womb it is nothing and killing it is justified??

And we're back to eating fetus again. Round and round we go. If it is edible, it isn't a person.

lmao...

 

[ImprobableJoe]

How does a fetus magically become a human being with rights as soon as it is out of the womb, but while it is womb it is nothing and killing it is justified??

I don't know. Why not hold off a year and see if it works out before bestowing rights on it? Why does it get rights at all? It doesn't get all of its rights until it grows up and reaches a certain age more than a decade after its birth. Since we recognize that there's a sliding scale of rights, all we're arguing over is where to draw that line.

lmao...

Funny, but also true. Abstract pig in a poke is just bacon in waiting. Dog sleeping on her very own couch behind me is more of a person to me than you are.

 

[tuxbox]

I don't know. Why not hold off a year and see if it works out before bestowing rights on it? Why does it get rights at all? It doesn't get all of its rights until it grows up and reaches a certain age more than a decade after its birth. Since we recognize that there's a sliding scale of rights, all we're arguing over is where to draw that line.

I definitely believe there should be a line drawn. As far why it gets rights, the best answer I give is that it is the moral thing to do. I certainly could not kill a new born, anymore than I could kill a dog or a cat.

Funny, but also true. Abstract pig in a poke is just bacon in waiting. Dog sleeping on her very own couch behind me is more of a person to me than you are.

I feel the same way about my dog and cockatiel. Them being a person, not the bacon.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I definitely believe there should be a line drawn. As far why it gets rights, the best answer I give is that it is the moral thing to do. I certainly could not kill a new born, anymore than I could kill a dog or a cat.

"It is the moral thing to do" isn't really an answer, it is a dodge and I think what you really mean is "it is the thing I prefer, out of the available options."

 

[tuxbox]

"It is the moral thing to do" isn't really an answer, it is a dodge and I think what you really mean is "it is the thing I prefer, out of the available options."

Indeed, I would prefer not kill newborns. It just so happens to be the moral thing to do as well. Please make a case that infanticide and neonaticide is moral, or at the very least amoral.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

http://www.leagueofreason.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4707

You don't seem to understand that "it is the moral thing to do" is completely empty and meaningless, do you?

 

[tuxbox]

http://www.leagueofreason.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4707

You don't seem to understand that "it is the moral thing to do" is completely empty and meaningless, do you?

Both Oxford and Websters define a person as such: "a human being regarded as an individual". It does not really matter what Mary Anne Warren thought or believed. A newborn is indeed a human being. Take away the right for he or she to live, then we can do the same for others who cannot speak for themselves. Killing a human just because he or she is not wanted, or because a few people believe that a human needs to meet a list of criteria to deserve the right to live, is in of itself immoral.