9/11

[Nemesis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDekNNGR6sY
I'm just a little skeptical about the whole 9/11 thing.
So, what do you think?

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I'm pretty skeptical of the conspiracy theories.

 

[Nemesis]

Its not just black and white, "the official truth" or "the conspiracy truth".

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Its not just black and white, "the official truth" or "the conspiracy truth".

But it IS black and white that the conspiracy theories aren't worth a bucket of sour owl poop. There is a wide spectrum of ideas about 9-11 that manage to not descend into Cloud Cuckoo Land. Are the official reports skewed to paint the government in the best possible light? Possibly. Could the information given to the investigators be tainted by people looking to cover their asses and minimize the appearance of incompetence? Possibly.

Is there any evidence or logical reason to believe that the WTC towers were blown up by explosives, and the plane crashes were just a ruse? Not a fucking chance. It isn't "impossible" of course, it is just REALLY STUPID.

 

[Penguin_Factory]

I've examined most of the 9/11 conspiracy theories and have yet to find one with merit. All of them suffer the same flaws as creationist argument- misrepresentation and misinterpretation of facts, bias, outright lies and more. Plus, I have yet to ever hear a plausible motive for why the government would actually want to orchestrate the attacks.

 

[Finger]

Its not just black and white, "the official truth" or "the conspiracy truth".

That's another thing about conspiracy theories, they thrive on incomplete knowledge. As long as there's the slightest bit of fallibility in the "official story" (and lets face it, there always will be,) then the conspiracy theory can claim all the legitimacy it wants in the minds of those who say "its not just black and white." Its the same way extreme creationists claim legitimacy through the normal Christians who never seriously think about the issue and could "go either way."

 

[ebbixx]

But it IS black and white that the conspiracy theories aren't worth a bucket of sour owl poop. ...

Is there any evidence or logical reason to believe that the WTC towers were blown up by explosives, and the plane crashes were just a ruse? Not a fucking chance. It isn't "impossible" of course, it is just REALLY STUPID.

While I agree most of the conspiracy theories are loony, Nemesis does bring up an interesting point.

Namely that the nature and number of outlandish conspiracy theories could easily mask some more nuanced story than the "official" line. Any story that diverges noticeably from the mainstream narrative will almost certainly tend to face prejudice that it is just another flavor of nut-encrusted fail.

I do think, for instance, that the fact that Bush and many of his buddies were/are millennialists and believers in a fairly simplistic reading of Isaiah and Revelations may have predisposed the administration to disregard intelligence and take other actions (or even more likely, inaction) that escalated the risks and made the success of the Al Quaeda plan that much more probable. And until all the details have been sifted over in detail 50 years from now (or whenever primary sources are declassified) I will not rule out the notion that there were no American Christian apocalypse nuts who may have also been implicated in the chain of events in some way.

Total ruse? Improbably to the point of absurdity. But something shocking and difficult to imagine, yet still credible? That is something I simply won't reject without much more information and openness than is presently likely or probable in a society that has come to regard the national security state as unremarkable and just the way things are.

 

[Whisperelmwood]

I'm sick of the 9/11 conspiracy nutts. Seriously. What actually happened was bad enough, without adding in all the crap about Bush being in on it.

Sure, there were things that went on for years beforehand, that if they had been caught, may have stopped it happening. But the problem is that hindsight is 20/20. The things that could have been changed, weren't noticeably important until AFTER it happened.

Conspiracy theories, for the large part, do my knut in. Seriously.

 

[ebbixx]

I'm sick of the 9/11 conspiracy nutts. Seriously. What actually happened was bad enough, without adding in all the crap about Bush being in on it.

Define "being in on it"?

While the conspiracy theory, overt "in on it" notions may be crap, I've certainly read many mainstream reports that, reading between the lines, suggest to me that Bush's failures as an executive did make the events more likely, and defeated several chances at prevention. In my book that adds up to culpability, but not necessarily intention.

I'll almost certainly be dead by the time there's a real consensus on the question, though.

 

[Whisperelmwood]

I'm sick of the 9/11 conspiracy nutts. Seriously. What actually happened was bad enough, without adding in all the crap about Bush being in on it.

suggest to me that Bush's failures as an executive did make the events more likely, and defeated several chances at prevention.

Which is what I said.

And 'in on it' in the theorist terms - as in 'helped orchestrate or knew it was going to happen and didn't act'.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Define "being in on it"?

While the conspiracy theory, overt "in on it" notions may be crap, I've certainly read many mainstream reports that, reading between the lines, suggest to me that Bush's failures as an executive did make the events more likely, and defeated several chances at prevention. In my book that adds up to culpability, but not necessarily intention.

I'll almost certainly be dead by the time there's a real consensus on the question, though.

That's just what I said. There's no doubt that there is more blame to go around than was taken credit for. The people in charge made sure that the investigation painted them in the best possible light.

You make the point that there's a huge difference between "the government was more incompetent than we'll ever know" and "the whole thing was a CIA plan."

 

[XC(A)libur]

As far as it being a zionist inside job, that is really the only group of people I could see having a motive of operating like that, and actual gaining from it. But as far as evidence goes, there is none proving that 9/11 was an actual zionist job. Most of the 9/11 truth is just fanatacism and rejection of reasoning.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

As far as it being a zionist inside job, that is really the only group of people I could see having a motive of operating like that, and actual gaining from it. But as far as evidence goes, there is none proving that 9/11 was an actual zionist job. Most of the 9/11 truth is just fanatacism and rejection of reasoning.

So, you're an "anti-zionist" but not a conspiracy theorist? Interesting... batshit crazy, but interesting. :lol:

 

[Synystyr]

Look up USS Liberty

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Look up USS Liberty

Why? Because it is evidence of nothing relating to delusional 9-11 conspiracy nonsense.

 

[Synystyr]

Why? Because it is evidence of nothing relating to delusional 9-11 conspiracy nonsense.

Why, because you made a snarky comment trying to straw man a political position. Being anti-[group] doesn't make you a conspiracy theorist, or otherwise batshit crazy. Two fallacies in one, here's your combo points. I brought up the Liberty because whether or not you believe that was premeditated, zionism and support for it demonstrably threatens our safety and ideals, as does any other fundamentalist belief. Is Richard Dawkins a conspiracy theorist?

 

[Finger]

Being anti-[group] doesn't make you a conspiracy theorist, or otherwise batshit crazy.

No, but it helps. Much like conspiracy theorists, you've presented an old, isolated incident as proof that [group] is evil. Granted, you are a far cry from spamming "WAKE UP PEOPLE!" But even if you could prove that the motivations for the attack were sinister and not a misunderstanding, an incident that is over 40 years old speaks little to the nation's current motivations. From what I know about the history of the Israeli Defense Force, its not outside the realm of possibility that the USS Liberty attack was just a friendly-fire scenario gone horribly wrong. They have a habit of responding excessively when attacked. Look at the Jordan incident. I'm not saying they're innocent, but wouldn't you be a little jumpy if every single one of the nations bordering you wanted to see your country and its people nuked to dust?

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Why, because you made a snarky comment trying to straw man a political position. Being anti-[group] doesn't make you a conspiracy theorist, or otherwise batshit crazy. Two fallacies in one, here's your combo points. I brought up the Liberty because whether or not you believe that was premeditated, zionism and support for it demonstrably threatens our safety and ideals, as does any other fundamentalist belief. Is Richard Dawkins a conspiracy theorist?

Reality doesn't make any sort of dent on a conspiracy theorist. I made a comment about how someone can reject your particular stupidity, and still believe some other potentially stupid thing themselves. You have 9-11 delusions, XC(A)libur has Zionist delusions, neither one of you have both feet planted in reality.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

No, but it helps. Much like conspiracy theorists, you've presented an old, isolated incident as proof that [group] is evil. Granted, you are a far cry from spamming "WAKE UP PEOPLE!" But even if you could prove that the motivations for the attack were sinister and not a misunderstanding, an incident that is over 40 years old speaks little to the nation's current motivations. From what I know about the history of the Israeli Defense Force, its not outside the realm of possibility that the USS Liberty attack was just a friendly-fire scenario gone horribly wrong. They have a habit of responding excessively when attacked. Look at the Jordan incident. I'm not saying they're innocent, but wouldn't you be a little jumpy if every single one of the nations bordering you wanted to see your country and its people nuked to dust?

Now, to be fair, Israel's hardliner government is a little bit deluded when it comes to external threats. But that's neither here nor there... except that some of us can disagree with some part of a government's behavior without resorting to demonizing an entire people, or making up ridiculous conspiracy theories.

As for the rest, in CT nutball world, there are no coincidences or accidents. Everything is always assumed to have the most sinister meaning possible. Where normal people see bad luck, incompetence, misplaced priorities, laziness, ideological blindness, and other factors that usually come into play when bad things happen, the conspiracy theorist sees a complex interconnected plot involving thousands of people, spread out over decades (sometimes centuries), involving people at the highest levels of every institution.

Ultimately, though... I think conspiracy theorists are extreme narcissists. They imagine gigantic conspiracies involving the greatest powers in the world, all allied with the intention of tricking the CT nutter. But they are too "smart" to be fooled. They, and only they, are brave and smart enough to see through the lies, to cut through the decades of deception and plotting, to see the "truth". The fact that people powerful enough to pull off the giant conspiracy don't have to pull off giant conspiracies at all? That never occurs to them, not in the least, because it all about them. They take a tragedy like 9-11, and they twist it into a self-centered fantasy in which everyone else is the enemy, and they are the brave hero.

 

[Raistlin Majere]

Not saying I believe in the conspiracy theory or anything, but i do believe that it doesn't necessarily mean that it involves Bush or the government or whoever to be more than what the official report declared. There was a huge insurance policy taken out for the buildings a short time before and there were temperatures in the basement of the building that were far higher than jet fuel can create. Possibly sabotage? Good way to turn a profit and there's always a motive when money is involve.

Not saying I believe all of it, but it's definitely possible. The commission report sure as hell isn't giving all the details, so we have to question what was given to us.