“An Earnest Plea for a Better Class of Atheists”

[Raistlin Majere]

Nemesiss: I like the societal one, but I'm definitely going to avoid the prison one as well as anything leading towards evolution. Just going to keep it where he takes it.

Morbidus: That will just piss him off too quickly And heaven never did sound really appealing for me either

Borrofburl: Great video actually, because I'm sure he'll mention something along those lines.

Xulld: That would be friggin excellent. My roommate might be able to help me out here with that idea. One of us could do the morality thing I was thinking and he could follow up and slam him with that. Great suggestion, thanks for that. Out of curiosity, where do you live?

 

[Icefire9atla]

Use Euthyphro's dillema,

Ask him if he thinks that a) what is moral is commanded by god because it is moral, or b) it is moral because god commands it.

If he answers a) then respond, "then why do we need god at all to decide what is moral? Morals already exist and god obeys them as well as us."

If he answers b) then ask him: "Then if god commanded someone to commit genocide (highly recommended you cite a bible verse for this), is it the right thing to do?"

He might say something about it being in god's nature to not command such acts.

If he says this, ask him to clarify. "Do you mean that he litterally can't, or he won't because he feels it is wrong?"

If the first option is correct, then god is not omnipotent, if he answers the second option, then god obeys independant morals, which he uses to decide what he commands. That brings us back to the begginning, why do we need god at all if the morals already exist?

 

[the_morbidus]

i found what Icefire9atla is saying in a poem i guess, stumbled across it by mistake.

Is god willing to prevent evil but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able to prevent evil but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both willing and able?
Then why is there evil?
Is he neither willing nor able?
Then why call it god?
(Epicurus 341 BCE - 270 BCE)

 

[Raistlin Majere]

Never heard of the dilemma, but I do know the problem of evil. The problem of evil + Xulld's idea sound like a good one-two combo. I like the dilemma but it's a bit too long if I only have a moment for questions. Thanks to everyone posting suggestions, keep the ideas coming, this is going to be fun

 

[borrofburi]

I like Xulld's statement, though I would follow it up with a skeptic saying something along the lines of the vast number of denominations of christians, muslims, jews, and other theists none of which offer any reasonable evidence is why I don't believe, and if not believing because of lack of evidence is "low class", I don't understand what is "better class".

I'm also not sure what he's saying, but if his complaint is that atheists don't understand the religions we attack, you could always respond with the courtier's reply: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/12/the_courtiers_reply.php

If he answers b) then ask him: "Then if god commanded someone to commit genocide (highly recommended you cite a bible verse for this), is it the right thing to do?"

He might say something about it being in god's nature to not command such acts.

Or he could just be a calvinist who accepts that infant-rape would be a moral imperative if god said it was.

Never heard of the dilemma, but I do know the problem of evil. The problem of evil + Xulld's idea sound like a good one-two combo. I like the dilemma but it's a bit too long if I only have a moment for questions. Thanks to everyone posting suggestions, keep the ideas coming, this is going to be fun

The problem of evil has... problems. Problem of suffering also has problems, but fewer of them. See:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viqVF3a--P4

 

[nemesiss]

hmm, lets see if we can improve on this one;

"i heard this discussion between a theist and an atheist, which started innocently with the possibility of 'the great flood';

theist: Noah didn't have to collect all animals, god told the animals to go to the ark.
atheist: come on, you can't seriously believe that? it's nonsense.
theist: pff, you are the one believing in nonsense, the big bang theory.. that everything came from nothing!
[the theist was yelling]
atheist: euhm, no... that is the thing YOU believe in.
[the atheist was talking in a soft and calm fashion]


What is your opinion on that one?"

note: that conversation was made up, but i think it to be quite plausible to happen.
that first sentence could be changed to anything that creationists say... that are so outragious, that no one... even christians would call it insane.

the answer itself... for or against... should be interesting.