Zeitgeist

[unkerpaulie]

I've watched all the films, many of Peter Joseph's lectures, and have even been involved in the chapter meetings in New York where I'm from. I like the utopia idea and, based on the way the film is put together, it seems as though it's a viable idea, even though the odds of it actually manifesting are slim to none. If enough people are united, I think the strategies can be implemented and really change the world.

However, the general consensus I'm getting from most economical and philosophical thinkers is that its an impractical and totally unachieveable form of socialism that will either end up as a lawless anarchy, a sovereign dictatorship, or some other type of disasterous failure. I'd like to discuss that and see if the idea can be built upon at all

 

[ImprobableJoe]

No.

Use the search function, please and thank you.

 

[unkerpaulie]

Have you used the search function? The single thread on this site that attempted to discuss the merits and critism of the venus project lasted about 10 posts when it was derailed by you and a fellow colleague arguing about whether racism is justifiable. The posts in that thread that actually discussed the venus project only talked about other people that talked about it on youtube. The topic has not been addressed. I made sure I checked before I started this thread.

Like I said, I'd like to discuss the idea, or at least hear the critisms against it and see if the idea has any merit at all

 

[IBSpify]

The idea is untenable, simply because people are greedy it is in our nature, and because of this it's impossible to get rid of the profit motive which would be required for their system to work.

Effectively they are trying to create the socioeconomic system used in the Star Trek universe, where they basically say "wouldn't it be nice if everybody got along and shared everything evenly." Yes it would, but that will not happen end of story.

 

[Prolescum]

http://www.leagueofreason.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=702 - 8 pages

http://www.leagueofreason.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=8194 - 3 pages

There are also several threads that discuss the Venus Project within threads about those dumb "documentaries" called Zeitgeist and Zeitgeist II: The Quickening or whatever.

Like many utopias, it is socially, economically and/or technologically unfeasible.

For example, a quote from their website:

The Venus Project[/url]"]The Venus Project calls for a cybernated society in which computers could replace the outmoded system of electing politicians that in most cases represent the entrenched vested interests. This new technology will not dictate or monitor individual's lives, as in The Venus Project this would be considered socially offensive and counterproductive. Books such as 1984 and Brave New World, and motion pictures such as Blade-Runner and Terminator 2 have spawned fear in some people regarding the takeover of technology in our society. The Venus Project's only purpose is to elevate the spiritual and intellectual potential of all people, while at the same time providing the goods and services that will meet their individual and material needs.

Cybernation is the linking of computers with automated systems. Eventually the central cybernated systems will coordinate all of the machinery and equipment that serve the entire city, the nation and ultimately the world. One can think of this as an electronic autonomic nervous system extending into all areas of the social complex.

For example, in the agricultural belt the computers could automatically monitor and maintain the water table, soil chemistry, and coordinate the planting and harvesting of crops. In the residential sector, the system could maintain environmental cleanliness and the recycling of waste materials.

It is a pipe dream.

That's assuming it's not a scam, which is also a possibility; it isn't difficult to persuade people to donate if you tell the story correctly.

 

[Armitage]

The idea is untenable, simply because people are greedy it is in our nature,

Is it in our nature to be greedy? If you make a claim, you should provide evidence, something scientific if possible. I could OTOH prove that altruism is measurable in children as young as 15 months. Science, man!
Jacque Fresco studied tribesmen on the Societ islands (or Tuamotu), most primitive, "unspoiled" civilization he could find. They were not greedy. He also studied Native Americans. Again, different culture, different property sharing customs. Fresco concluded that human behavior is shaped by the environment. Scarce environment produces greed and crime. Plentiful environment produces peace and prosperity. The difference is if we stick with the carrying capacity of the environment.

and because of this it's impossible to get rid of the profit motive which would be required for their system to work.

Profit motive is necessary? People thought so for centuries, they thought that (pardon my language) "niggers" must be beaten by a whip or they would not work, they would just eat bananas and lie in huts all day long. Then slavery was abolished (it was inefficient anyway) and now we think profit is the only way. Let me tell you, human motivation is a scientific field of study and there are results. You'd be surprised, let's see this TEDx talk of Daniel Pink.

Effectively they are trying to create the socioeconomic system used in the Star Trek universe, where they basically say "wouldn't it be nice if everybody got along and shared everything evenly." Yes it would, but that will not happen end of story.

No, this is not true at all. Libertarians and other monetarily oriented people often say "Wouldn't it be nice if everybody respected everyone's property rights". Other people say, "if all people on Earth were Muslims, there would be no Jihad" and "if all people were Christians, there would be no sin and everyone would go to Heaven". This is all equally bullshit yet laughable and sad when coming out of mouth of mainstream, politically influential economists.

This is exactly the mistake that Jacque fresco does NOT make. Fresco discovered, that people behave as their environment motivates them. In environment of scarcity, people are motivated to be greedy and accumulate wealth. In abundance, people take only what they need at the moment and go doing something more interesting. This is the same principle as libraries and banks, we trust banks that the money there remain, we only withdraw a bit at a time and banks don't need to have a big banknote supply. In banks this principle is misused, but it also proves the principle.
Fresco designed an environment that does not induce people to commit any crimes - specially not the property, poverty and money-related crimes. Fresco even goes to such lengths as to suggesting a language with no ambiguity in interpretation, to prevent conflicts from misunderstanding.

It is clear that you do not know who is Fresco, what is The Venus Project. You do not understand how it works, so you project all your common worries and disappointments with all the nonsense you've ever encountered. Some things you have to study, you can't understand them off the bat. Please visit the website and start studying. One of things Fresco talks about is how we are conditioned to appear wise at all times and never say "I don't know."