Would you rat on a benefit cheat?

[MRaverz]

It's natural to be annoyed with the undeserving person, but the only reason they are benefitting from a tiny portion of your money is because a gov made a very bad choice in giving it to them. Are you absolutely sure they (the gov) don't deserve any annoyance from you? What if it was me making the decision to give your money to a cheat?

But the undeserving person has tricked the government into getting the money, hence fraud.

You speak as if the government is giving money away to people, knowing that they don't deserve it and it's simply not true.

 

[Worldquest]

It's natural to be annoyed with the undeserving person, but the only reason they are benefitting from a tiny portion of your money is because a gov made a very bad choice in giving it to them. Are you absolutely sure they (the gov) don't deserve any annoyance from you? What if it was me making the decision to give your money to a cheat?

But the undeserving person has tricked the government into getting the money, hence fraud.

You speak as if the government is giving money away to people, knowing that they don't deserve it and it's simply not true.

No I'm saying that the gov makes bad decision after bad decision. I mean, if you can see that someone doesn't deserve benefits, how come the all powerful gov can't? No wonder they rely on snitches because they're no good at their job. It's their job to determine who deserves it or not, yet repeatedly they make bad choices. A long time ago, when I was on benefits, I was asked to provide various details, and then they paid me (I was legit), but it dawned on me afterwards, and even during the process, that if I really wanted to, I could have cheated. As someone who has gone through it, I can tell you that a schoolkid could do a better job of deciding and investigating who deserves benefits. The government is seriously very very incompetent in making those decisions, they are not very thorough at all and it is so easy to cheat, hence why so many get away with it.

And it is that chronic incompetence which deserves at least some (and in my view, a lot of) annoyance. Don't you think? Or do you think "oh well, never mind, mistakes happen". A cheat is meant to cheat, that's what they do. A hard working person is meant to work hard, that's who they are. But a gov is supposed to tell the difference between who deserves help and who doesn't, and they don't fulfill that very well. people get fired from jobs every day of the week due to gross incompetence, why should the gov be immune to at least some annoyance?

 

[Lallapalalable]

I wouldnt, because some day I may see fit to do it myself , and hypocrisy doesnt bode well with me

 

[MRaverz]

Worldquest, you seem to think that the government is failing it's job and care a lot about that. You also seem to want to change it. Could I therefore suggestion that you run for government?

It would definitely be more productive than sitting in the general population and complaining.

 

[Worldquest]

Worldquest, you seem to think that the government is failing it's job and care a lot about that. You also seem to want to change it. Could I therefore suggestion that you run for government?

It would definitely be more productive than sitting in the general population and complaining.

With all due respect, that's a cop out. You're not addressing any of what I said. My point is that governements make terrible decisions repeatedly, yet you see no reason to get annoyed with them, choosing instead to focus your annoyance merely on the beneficiaries of those bad deisions.

 

[MRaverz]

Worldquest, you seem to think that the government is failing it's job and care a lot about that. You also seem to want to change it. Could I therefore suggestion that you run for government?

It would definitely be more productive than sitting in the general population and complaining.

With all due respect, that's a cop out. You're not addressing any of what I said. My point is that governements make terrible decisions repeatedly, yet you see no reason to get annoyed with them, choosing instead to focus your annoyance merely on the beneficiaries of those bad deisions.

They're human, I don't expect perfection. I voted in the last of election, and my choice didn't make it into Parliament. Yet there is now a Tory/Lib-Dem alliance and I'm pleased with this. (I voted Lib Dem)

I didn't vote for my choice because they were messianic, I voted because they seem to hold ideals which were close to my own. Just as the Lib Dem policies mainly reflect my views. I voted to show my support for those ideals, not because I felt the politicians would get every decision right, but that they would steer the country in a direction I wanted it to go in.

Yet the system isn't perfect, I feel that proportional representation is needed and I show my support for this when I can.


To more directly answer your question, the government doesn't make mistakes on purpose - but a cheat purposely takes advantage of the government's imperfections. I'm therefore mildly annoyed at the people who cheat the system, because they are doing it actively. I understand that government isn't perfect, and see no reason to get annoyed at them for being human - their fault is passive.


I do genuinely suggest that you run for government however.

 

[Worldquest]

MRaverz -

You keep emphasising that nobody, including the gov, is perfect. I'm not disputing that. What I'm saying is that it's one thing to make mistakes from time to time, but it's another thing to repeatedly make a mistake. If you made mistakes at your job, and you did it over and over again, would you get some kind of warning, or get sacked? Very likely. Your imperfections would not be the issue, however your repeated incompetence would. You can only make the excuse of "Oh I'm only human" so many times.

You obviously libe in the UK, as do I, so you are surely aware of the fact that here we often hear about benefit cheats, families living in great big houses, getting tens and tens of thousands worth of benefits to live on. You also will be aware of those slimey adverts where it shows someone going about their life, living on (drum roll...) your money. Clearly it is an epidemic. Loads of people are doing it.

This means two things : There are many people who are getting away with cheating and getting money, and it means that there is an incompetent gov giving it to them. How many more adverts and snitchlines and stories in the paper will it take for it to dawn on you that it takes 2 to tango? You can only make the excuse "oh, everyone's human" for so long.

If this was a rare thing, it would be a different matter, but as you know, it isn't. Governments, like any other humans with their imperfections, need to show responsibility sooner or later, that's part of being an adult. Benefit cheats don't do that, that's because they're beenfit cheats (what do you expect?) but what excuse does the gov have for being such a big part of the problem? And living in the UK, surely you have heard time and time again about councils' incompetence, not to mention corruption.

And I'll say again, when I was on benefits, I realised just how bad they are at their job. I have first and experience. If I wanted to cheat, it would be a piece of cake. The gov does need to take responsibility for its part of the problem. Which is why I ask, how come you are effectively mollycoddling them when they are far from innocent?

 

[MRaverz]

Worldquest,

I'm acknowledging the government as being inadequate, and the cheat as purposefully deceitful. There's plenty which needs to be done about the government, their website for example is appalling - having just completely student finances, I've experienced first hand how unfair and broken that system is.

But for a government to work successfully, infact for any organisation to work successfully - there needs to be good communication between it's users and the organisation itself. 'Ratting on' a benefit cheat would be my take on helping out the government, country and the population as it stops money being wasted.

That said, the system is terrible. People can earn more on benefits than with a low paid job. These are problems which are being addressed, yet they would be addressed faster if more people were to highlight the problem and help change things. Hence why I'm suggesting you run for parliament.

People complain as if the government is an organisation separate from the public, it's not - it's made up of members of the public. Anybody can get into parliament as long as they get support. In fact with first past the post, you only need support in your constituency - it is, after all, how Green got an MP into Parliament.

 

[Worldquest]

Re:

Worldquest,

I'm acknowledging the government as being inadequate, and the cheat as purposefully deceitful. There's plenty which needs to be done about the government, their website for example is appalling - having just completely student finances, I've experienced first hand how unfair and broken that system is.

But for a government to work successfully, infact for any organisation to work successfully - there needs to be good communication between it's users and the organisation itself. 'Ratting on' a benefit cheat would be my take on helping out the government, country and the population as it stops money being wasted.

That said, the system is terrible. People can earn more on benefits than with a low paid job. These are problems which are being addressed, yet they would be addressed faster if more people were to highlight the problem and help change things. Hence why I'm suggesting you run for parliament.

People complain as if the government is an organisation separate from the public, it's not - it's made up of members of the public. Anybody can get into parliament as long as they get support. In fact with first past the post, you only need support in your constituency - it is, after all, how Green got an MP into Parliament.

You're passing the buck again. You say that the system is bad, and that it needs addressing. I always try not to quote other people but on this occasion I think it's appropriate, and I'll paraphrase Einstein (not that it matters who said it because it is true regardless) : You can't solve a problem with the same level of consciousness (you can replace that with whatever word you feel fits) as those who caused it.

There's a reason why I quote that. As long as there have been governements, there have been huge problems, again and again regerdless of who it is. Relying on the people who run the system to change the system is crazy. If I came into your house and ran your household terribly, would you say what you say about govs, or would you kick me out on the basis that I can't be trusted to change how I do it? If I ran your town badly, same thing.

What you're doing is basically ignoring the fact that being a politician is a career. It is a ladder. Why do you trust people whose primary allegiance is to their career? Who cares more about you...them, or you? I don't even know you and I'm sure we've had squabbles here but I still care much more about your interests than they do. So why do you excuse them, again and again?

They give your money to people who don't deserve the help, and not only that, but they do it repeatedly. And were you listening when I said that I've seen how they work, and how easy they make it to cheat?

I think your issue is this : Governments' systems are terrible, but it's the best we have. But the fact is that governments themselves are chronically terrible, and it's so bad, that other options are realistic.

I bet that if you and I tried to devise a system (just for fun) whereby the people have as much say as possible in their affairs, we would reach a point where it would start to get tricky. But then, I would say, hold it right there, keep the good bits, and only then start to introduce other mechanisms. And if we did that, I bet we'd end up with something far better than we have now. We'd end up with the very best from a people- orientated approach, plus the very best of other ways of doing things.

Do you disagree?

 

[MRaverz]

Your analogy doesn't fit, if you were to walk into my house and run the household - I would've had no vote in the matter. Once again, you're demonstrating that you think government is separate from society. It's a part of it which the general population influence.

A politian can only care so much about an individual, instead they must address the society as a whole. This is something that an individual is less likely to do. If you are voted into a position, you're there because the people wanted you to be - therefore you either already want to act in their interests or, for the sake of votes, need to act in their interests.

I would agree that government as we have it, isn't perfect. I would say the same for all systems. I'm sure we could devise a better system, yet we could not get around the fact that people will make bad choices.

This is why I stated a while back that the best state, is a Totalitarian state (as long as the leader is a good leader). It means that once you have made a good decision, you can keep the good decisions coming. The problem is finding that leader.

 

[Ozymandyus]

Cosmic -

I understand that and it makes sense. But would you feel any resentment if it wasn't your money? What I mean is, people tend to feel as though the person (the cheat) is stealing from them. They look at them as if they directly stole their money. I just don't understand how they don't feel resentment towards the system which saw fit to give money to an underserving person. After all, if I took your money and used it unwisely by giving it to an undeserving person, would you not be just a bit annoyed with me? Or perhaps they do feel resentment towards the gov on some level but they project the resentment onto the cheat.

There are three parties involved :

- You, who earned the money

- The gov, who gave it to an undeserving person

- The undeserving person


It's natural to be annoyed with the undeserving person, but the only reason they are benefitting from a tiny portion of your money is because a gov made a very bad choice in giving it to them. Are you absolutely sure they (the gov) don't deserve any annoyance from you? What if it was me making the decision to give your money to a cheat?

We are (supposedly) powerless against governments. This has been etched into our psychology for a long time. So I think that's why so many people project their ill feelings onto others, such as benefit cheats.

Except in your scenario: there is an undeserving person, who Cheats (meaning purposefully lies or steals or misrepresents his circumstances) in order to get it... and a government that is acting in good faith and assuming that cheat is being honest. It is our job as citizens to 'rat' out these cheats and have our tax dollars spent as efficiently as possible rather than forcing the government to spend 3x as much investigating each case to make sure people are not cheating.

In essence what you are saying is that if someone robs you, it is your fault for trusting people enough to walk around with 20 bucks in your pocket... An incredibly sad way of looking at life. It's a horrible system that would lead directly to the downfall of civilization, where people should be allowed to get away with whatever they can, no matter who it hurts, and if you get taken advantage of by a conman or get killed by a murderer it's your own dang fault.

 

[Worldquest]

Cosmic -

I understand that and it makes sense. But would you feel any resentment if it wasn't your money? What I mean is, people tend to feel as though the person (the cheat) is stealing from them. They look at them as if they directly stole their money. I just don't understand how they don't feel resentment towards the system which saw fit to give money to an underserving person. After all, if I took your money and used it unwisely by giving it to an undeserving person, would you not be just a bit annoyed with me? Or perhaps they do feel resentment towards the gov on some level but they project the resentment onto the cheat.

There are three parties involved :

- You, who earned the money

- The gov, who gave it to an undeserving person

- The undeserving person


It's natural to be annoyed with the undeserving person, but the only reason they are benefitting from a tiny portion of your money is because a gov made a very bad choice in giving it to them. Are you absolutely sure they (the gov) don't deserve any annoyance from you? What if it was me making the decision to give your money to a cheat?

We are (supposedly) powerless against governments. This has been etched into our psychology for a long time. So I think that's why so many people project their ill feelings onto others, such as benefit cheats.

Except in your scenario: there is an undeserving person, who Cheats (meaning purposefully lies or steals or misrepresents his circumstances) in order to get it... and a government that is acting in good faith and assuming that cheat is being honest. It is our job as citizens to 'rat' out these cheats and have our tax dollars spent as efficiently as possible rather than forcing the government to spend 3x as much investigating each case to make sure people are not cheating.

In essence what you are saying is that if someone robs you, it is your fault for trusting people enough to walk around with 20 bucks in your pocket... An incredibly sad way of looking at life. It's a horrible system that would lead directly to the downfall of civilization, where people should be allowed to get away with whatever they can, no matter who it hurts, and if you get taken advantage of by a conman or get killed by a murderer it's your own dang fault.

Whoa, slow down. What I'm saying is that the gov is extremely incompetent in that it lets such a huge problem occur. That level of incompetence gets employees sacked, at the very least it should make people get angry at the gov for being so clumsy. The reason why people direct their anger at the cheats and not the gov, is that people have become so dependent on the gov, that the idea that they should be removed on the grounds of gross incompetence is alien to them, because then there would be no gov, which is what they have become brainwashed into being dependent on. So the cheat is the scapegoat and takes the full blame, when the cheat is only one half of the equation.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Is there any evidence that this is even a real problem?

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

- When I pay my taxes, it's theft. I have no say in whether or not I give the government any of my money, I have no say in how much I give them, I have no say in how it gets spent, and no one tells me where my money went. So it's not mine anymore. Morally, it's always mine, but in practical terms, it's gone. As far as I'm concerned, when a thief takes my money, they can do what they like with it, for all intents and purposes it doesn't belong to me anymore. So, if someone somewhere along the lines benefits from what was once my money, I don't really care. I don't feel any resentment towards anyone who lives off some of it.

Let's ignore the fact you vote in every election (if you don't, then you're in no position to bitch). Let's also ignore the fact that you can Google "Government Spending + 'Country Name Here' " and you can get a comprehensive list of what's being spent.
All I'm getting from this statement is "Fuck da man. I know how to better spend money than any stupid politician ever will so quit stealing my money."
(I'm also getting a side-view of a 5 year old bawwing because his dad spent the money on groceries instead of Candy and Co-co Puffs for the entire month).

- Basically, it's none of my business. If a person genuinely needs help, good for them. And if they simply want to live on easy street, off other people's stolen money, no problem. If that's how they want to live their lives why not, it's their choice. They pay the consequences, in the form of not having as high a self esteem as they would if they were actually earning their money but that's their problem. So really, it doesn't concern me at all.

You realize he's stealing YOUR MONEY, correct? The Government (in a democracy) is a representation of the people. The less money they are getting, the less they have to spend on your fun programs such as schools, Healthcare, Highways, and other such programs that you DO benefit from but seem t constantly ignore whenever you hate on modern Government systems in several of your threads.

- Snitching doesn't appeal to me, and stealing people's money and then trying to divide and conquer them is pretty low. If I was a teacher and I found out that some kid did something wrong and that someone told on them, I'd punish snitchy too. Probably more.

Yea. Snitches end up in ditches homie. Straight up gangsta street of ya to abide by the coward code.
-_-

You really need to learn how government and society works in whole before you start criticizing it. Taxes serve you, the person who is dumb enough to think the government is out to steal your money and is ran by retards that throw it into holes and bury it for lulz. The U.S. Government (last I checked) has a higher tax-efficiency than any other country (it's about the only thing we're still #1 at now).

 

[Worldquest]

You really think it bothers me that benefit cheats are stealing my money? It doesn't bother me one little bit, they're welcome to it. That's the thing you see, you actually think that trying to outrage me by calling it my money is going to work. It used to be my money until it was stolen. And that's what the papers try to do aswell, play on people's sense of it being their money, and hoping that they'll ignore the real thief. No dice, homie. I know a real thief when I see one. And I'll assume you realise that others can see right through the facade also. Divide and rule, playing the public against each other is a very transparent and very old trick, and you've fallen for it hook line and sinker.

By the way, what the hell does sinker actually mean?

 

[Ozymandyus]

You really think it bothers me that benefit cheats are stealing my money? It doesn't bother me one little bit, they're welcome to it. That's the thing you see, you actually think that trying to outrage me by calling it my money is going to work. It used to be my money until it was stolen. And that's what the papers try to do aswell, play on people's sense of it being their money, and hoping that they'll ignore the real thief. No dice, homie. I know a real thief when I see one. And I'll assume you realise that others can see right through the facade also. Divide and rule, playing the public against each other is a very transparent and very old trick, and you've fallen for it hook line and sinker.

By the way, what the hell does sinker actually mean?

You understand nothing of what taxes are doing for you... Which was Hytegia's point. It's not being stolen from you, it is being used by you (through a proxy, the government) to promote the common good (which includes you). Whenever someone (Including government entities themselves!) uses the money collected for their own personal benefit it is stealing from you. Otherwise, they are doing exactly what you are asking them to do with the money. Now, some things are benefitting people, such as unemployment benefits, or social security. These are systems established by the public (or their representatives) to ensure a smoothly running society with lower crime, and higher employment. They are time tested ways of ensuring people do not end up homeless and unable to come back when they fall on hard times. You can help change these, if you don't like them, by voting. But if you cheat to try to take advantage of programs that are meant to keep your society running smoothly, you are only destabalizing the society which you live in. You deserve every punishment that comes to you.

If you don't like how your country has voted to set up their government, you have to move somewhere else. That is your option, and it is always open to you. I hear there are no government taxes in Somalia. Pretty much everywhere else "steals" your money. Enjoy!

 

[Canto]

I would and have given the appropriate agencies information regarding persons abusing the system for financial gain.

I look at it like this.

1) I'm buying in to these systems through payment of taxes.
2) It is my responsibility to make sure my "investment" remains solid.
3) While it is not strictly my money they are taking, it is the service that I am paying for that they are taking. If I keep allowing them to take it, then that service will not be there for me when I need it.

You have a very short sighted view of taxes and what exactly they represent. Your inability to understand the very basic and fundamental rules of society and what it takes to maintain it show that you have the intellectual capabilities of a 5th grader. I think Jeff Foxworthy would like a word with you. Please take the time to hit wikipedia and LEARN something.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

You understand nothing of what taxes are doing for you... Which was Hytegia's point. It's not being stolen from you, it is being used by you (through a proxy, the government) to promote the common good (which includes you). Whenever someone (Including government entities themselves!) uses the money collected for their own personal benefit it is stealing from you. Otherwise, they are doing exactly what you are asking them to do with the money. Now, some things are benefitting people, such as unemployment benefits, or social security. These are systems established by the public (or their representatives) to ensure a smoothly running society with lower crime, and higher employment. They are time tested ways of ensuring people do not end up homeless and unable to come back when they fall on hard times. You can help change these, if you don't like them, by voting. But if you cheat to try to take advantage of programs that are meant to keep your society running smoothly, you are only destabalizing the society which you live in. You deserve every punishment that comes to you.

If you don't like how your country has voted to set up their government, you have to move somewhere else. That is your option, and it is always open to you. I hear there are no government taxes in Somalia. Pretty much everywhere else "steals" your money. Enjoy!

That's what I was typing, then the site went on Maintenance (FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUU-).


---------------------------

Worldquest,

It IS your money. You can/do benefit from almost every penny your tax dollars go to - the U.S. has the highest tax-efficiency out of the top 5 countries last I checked. Saying OH NOEZ THAT DAMNED COMMIE MEDIA TRYIN TO LIE ABOUT MAH CASH only leaves you in a city called "Paranoid Delusion, Population: You & Tea-Party Nutcases"

I'm sure those highways pave themselves. Ah! And who needs police officers? Or firefighters? And those Health Inspectors can jump off a cliff - I'm sure you enjoy rat poison and bird dung in your meat (see: The Jungle by Upton Sinclaire). Those soldiers can pay themselves, can't they? Weapons are donated by generous organizations interested solely in this nation's defense. And that Healthcare can just pay for itself now too.
And pixies and unicorns will come flying out my ass. Also Scientology was right people - we're all Tom Cruises' mental inferior, and Xenu is now in League with Goku and the Invisible Pink Unicorn to try to overthrow Santa Clause and the Flying Spagetti Monster in the Ultimate battle of Red vs. Blue.

-_-

 

[Worldquest]

Sorry I'm not at all convinced. I don't see it as my money, I see it as money that used to be mine, which was them stolen.

 

[MRaverz]

Sorry I'm not at all convinced. I don't see it as my money, I see it as money that used to be mine, which was them stolen.

You use public services, you're going to have to pay for that.

If not, you're stealing from everyone else.

Alternatively you could stop using public services and you wouldn't have to pay for it. That means no water, electricity, housing, use of roads, security, justice system, NHS. To name a few.