Women say some rape victims should take blame - survey

[5810Singer]

I find this sickening, but not surprising:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8515592.stm

 

[Squawk]

Heard this on the news earlier today. Morons.

 

[Andiferous]

Not surprising at all. I feel sorry for them too, they're talking about themselves.

 

[obsidianavenger]

hey now- while i agree no woman should even be forced to do that which she doesn't want to do, regardless of prior actions or "implied consent" putting yourself in a dangerous situation (like in bed with a strange man) is pretty stupid! i'm not sure i would say its the woman's *fault* but i would say that she made a mistake putting herself in that situation.

also at least to me, it makes sense that women would be more judgmental about behaviors they could control if they were in the same situation. they think "i would never do something that stupid!" and then proceed to blame the victim.

while the woman is no more at fault than a robbery victim with inadequate security, it would pay her to invest in better security (ie make better decisions). i don't think those two are contradictory.

 

[Andiferous]

hey now- while i agree no woman should even be forced to do that which she doesn't want to do, regardless of prior actions or "implied consent" putting yourself in a dangerous situation (like in bed with a strange man) is pretty stupid! i'm not sure i would say its the woman's *fault* but i would say that she made a mistake putting herself in that situation.

Doesn't have to be a strange man, though.

 

[obsidianavenger]

hey now- while i agree no woman should even be forced to do that which she doesn't want to do, regardless of prior actions or "implied consent" putting yourself in a dangerous situation (like in bed with a strange man) is pretty stupid! i'm not sure i would say its the woman's *fault* but i would say that she made a mistake putting herself in that situation.

Doesn't have to be a strange man, though.

he's obviously not as trustworthy as she thought

 

[Andiferous]

Certainly.

Again, not her fault.

I think of it as: if you get into an argument with someone, you're not giving someone permission to hit you.

 

[obsidianavenger]

Certainly.

Again, not her fault.

I think of it as: if you get into an argument with someone, you're not giving someone permission to hit you.

agreed, not her fault. but avoidable nonetheless...

 

[Andiferous]

Certainly.

Again, not her fault.

I think of it as: if you get into an argument with someone, you're not giving someone permission to hit you.

agreed, not her fault. but avoidable nonetheless...

In some cases yes, I agree that lapse in judgement, emotion and naivete is sexless, raceless and ageless, but regardless... rape itself is a crime and the judgement of the victim is quite irrelevant where a rape does happen. If it isn't actually rape, sure, that might be relevant. There are defining characterististics that determine whether it is or is not from a legal standpoint, and I suppose that's the issue.

The article asks women if the victims are responsible for the rape, and by rape definition, the victims did not want it.

In a way I think it's demeaning to men to take away any degree of responsibility for raping women, because in doing so we might as well be suggesting men are complete and utter slaves to ___ and can't think at the same time.

 

[Grimstad]

I remember at age 15 I managed to get my girlfriend into bed naked (it really wasn't that hard. We had been working toward this for some time.). My God I've made it to the promised land! But when I got to the point of actually sticking it in, she said no. And NO MEANS NO. No matter how close it came, it was her choice not to follow through. That doesn't mean in any way that if I had forced myself upon her that she was in any way at fault for getting raped. NO MEANS NO.

 

[Giliell]

Well, I think one of the reasons for women to blame the victim is to create false psychological security for herself.
Because if in 50% of rape cases it is the fault of the victim (usually the woman), then you reduce your personal risk by that 50%.
It was because of the short skirt? Can't happen to me, I don't wear those skirts.
It was because she flirted with a stranger? Can't happen to me, I don't do that.

 

[Demojen]

hey now- while i agree no woman should even be forced to do that which she doesn't want to do, regardless of prior actions or "implied consent" putting yourself in a dangerous situation (like in bed with a strange man) is pretty stupid! i'm not sure i would say its the woman's *fault* but i would say that she made a mistake putting herself in that situation.

There is no "putting yourself in a situation" where rape and murder are reasonable, and there's a good reason.
You can not reasonably be expected to mitigate the risks of other people's psychosis.

Most individuals are judged against a phantom person known as the reasonable person when put on trial.
Since it's not a crime to be seductive, claiming that the victim is in any way responsible(made a mistake putting herself in that situation?) for mitigating the risk of his/her being assaulted by a psychopath only lends to criminalizing freedom of expression.

You say you're not sure you would say it's the woman's fault, then you follow up with a statement that it's the woman's fault because she's responsible for mitigating the conditions that may or may not trigger a psychopath. That is bullshit and you know it.

A woman who'se buck naked infront of a crowd of REASONABLE people should hold no fear of being raped and if you think that she should then either A) You'd be so inclined or B) You don't have a reasonable standard for what is reasonable.

Before you say it's avoidable...Keep in mind that's not even relevant.
The law is based on what is reasonable, not what is probable. She's not buying rape insurance here.

 

[obsidianavenger]

A woman who'se buck naked infront of a crowd of REASONABLE people should hold no fear of being raped and if you think that she should then either A) You'd be so inclined or B) You don't have a reasonable standard for what is reasonable.

agree with me or you're a rapist!

seriously though, while its true that the fact that such things happen is horrible, it doesn't follow that its not reasonable to take precautions.

example: my brother steals from me. every chance he gets. it is stupid of me to not put a lock on my door to prevent him from getting at my stuff. it sucks that i have to do so, but its still wise on my part to do it.

similarly, its a sad fact that some men are rapists. its stupid to put yourself in a situation where you may be raped. it does *not* follow that its your fault if you are raped, just like its not my fault if my brother steals from me. however there *is* something i can do to ensure a better outcome in both cases. thats what i am getting at.

 

[Giliell]

Ok, let's move to a different crime:
Somebody is robbed on the street, the robber is caught.
Will he get a different sentence according to whether he did it in broad daylight in a good part of town or whether he did it at night in a bad part of town?

OK, you get years for the daylight robbery because the victim was reasonable, but we only fine you 100 $ for the second crime because the person walking around in the bad part of town at night was stupid and therefore it was their fault?

 

[Demojen]

Indictable offenses aren't measured on a balance of probabilities or sentenced with consideration for the "necessity" to mitigate a victims own damages.

So no...Under the law, they would be charged the same whether the individual took efforts to protect him/her self or not.

 

[coughlan666]

 

[Raistlin Majere]

See now THAT'S asking for it... Although it brings up a good point to those women that voted that victims are responsible. If they're asking for it then it wouldn't be rape :S

 

[obsidianavenger]

Ok, let's move to a different crime:
Somebody is robbed on the street, the robber is caught.
Will he get a different sentence according to whether he did it in broad daylight in a good part of town or whether he did it at night in a bad part of town?

OK, you get years for the daylight robbery because the victim was reasonable, but we only fine you 100 $ for the second crime because the person walking around in the bad part of town at night was stupid and therefore it was their fault?

no! i am not saying the women should take the blame i am just saying there are things she can do to minimize her chances of getting raped. its just smart. wanting to protect yourself from a criminal isn't the same as sanctioning his crime.

 

[nemesiss]

Well, I think one of the reasons for women to blame the victim is to create false psychological security for herself.
Because if in 50% of rape cases it is the fault of the victim (usually the woman), then you reduce your personal risk by that 50%.
It was because of the short skirt? Can't happen to me, I don't wear those skirts.
It was because she flirted with a stranger? Can't happen to me, I don't do that.

i think its the signals those women are sending to men without being consience about it.
they probably are not aware of how a certain walk or movement can become sensual and erotic in someone else's mind.
this however is not blaming women, this also applies to men.
just because women are sending those signals, doesn't mean you should act upon them.

 

[Giliell]

i think its the signals those women are sending to men without being consience about it.
they probably are not aware of how a certain walk or movement can become sensual and erotic in someone else's mind.
this however is not blaming women, this also applies to men.
just because women are sending those signals, doesn't mean you should act upon them.

I am aware that certain things can arouse sexual attraction.
But rape usually isn't about sex in the first place, it's about power. I'm not a man, but I would imagine it to be more pleasurable as a sexual attraction if the partner is willing and complying and trying to give you pleasure as well.
As I said on youtube, saying that a certain dress or behaviour leads to rape logically results in the most fundamentalist muslim rules, because if showing some part of your body makes men lose control, showing any part is wrong. If some behaviour and contact with men makes them lose control, any contact with men is wrong. Consequently, in muslim countries, they usually punish the victim.

But I think better of men than that. I actually have quite a high opinion of men as one of the main varieties of the most reasonable species on this planet. I think you are totally able to behave yourselves, control your urges and act decently