Wine Glass.

[FatStupidAmerican]

I am sure you are all familiar with the different types of wine and alcohol specific glasses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_glass

The claim is that the physical characteristics of the glass affects the flavor experience of the wine. I took to google to find if this has ever been tested in some way shape or form and all I have found are wine snobs arguing.

Now I am attempting to come up with a method to create tests to see if drinking wine out of various glasses can alter the flavor.


What do you guys think?

 

[Aught3]

Sounds interesting. I've always enjoyed beer more in a glass than in a bottle, maybe that's another thing you could test.

 

[FatStupidAmerican]

The question is how though.

 

[Aught3]

My first thought is to have (say) three different glasses and three different, but similar, wines. Blind the participants and get them to drink the 9 samples. Then get them to group the wines into three and see if they can tell which are the identical wines. Also have a control group to make sure that people can actually identify the same wine in the same glass.

Btw, I volunteer to be a participant in your trial

 

[derkvanl]

The form of a glass does a lot for the taste in general.

Try a good cognac from a red wine glass or a cognac glass. Served at the right temperature the taste in the cognac glass is much richer, because through it's shape it holds a lot more of the alcohol vapors.

A champagne will loose it's bubbles faster in a wider glass and won't taste as good for that.

Beer in a bottle will also have more bubbles than in a glass. But some belgium beers for example, most of them have their own shape of glass and you 'll never drink them from a bottle.

I don't say all wines will taste different in different glasses, but I enjoy a good wine, cognac, beer, whisk(e)y more when it's served in the proper glass.

 

[Your Funny Uncle]

My hypothesis would be that since it's known that smell enhances our sense of taste, any glass that allows the nose to get close to the wine unimpeded while drinking would enhance the experience. Also I understand that red wine needs to oxygenate after opening and it makes sense that a wider glass would expose more surface area to the air, speeding up the process. Beyond this, I suspect that it IS mostly snobbery, so I'd set up the test with glasses that reflect these differences, perhaps also taking into account the time that the wine has been open.

On a related note I understand the logic of red wine glasses having short stems and white wine glasses having long stems. You want your white wine to stay cool and you need something to hold so that your body temperature that won't raise the temperature of the wine. Red wine is generally served at room temperature so that's not much of a problem and a lower, wider design seems more appropriate to maximise the smell hitting your nose.

 

[FatStupidAmerican]

My first thought is to have (say) three different glasses and three different, but similar, wines. Blind the participants and get them to drink the 9 samples. Then get them to group the wines into three and see if they can tell which are the identical wines. Also have a control group to make sure that people can actually identify the same wine in the same glass.

Btw, I volunteer to be a participant in your trial

The way I am am envisioning the test so far

I would have the participants drink the same batch of wine from a glass straw. While drinking the wine various glasses containing the same batch of wine would be under their nose so they could also smell the wine while drinking.

I would probably have to make sure that in ever case the oxidation of the wine was the same.

I am still trying to account for everything.

I dont want the test subjects to hold touch the glass as they would be able to identify it which may create a bias.

 

[FatStupidAmerican]

The form of a glass does a lot for the taste in general.

Try a good cognac from a red wine glass or a cognac glass. Served at the right temperature the taste in the cognac glass is much richer, because through it's shape it holds a lot more of the alcohol vapors.

A champagne will loose it's bubbles faster in a wider glass and won't taste as good for that.

Beer in a bottle will also have more bubbles than in a glass. But some belgium beers for example, most of them have their own shape of glass and you 'll never drink them from a bottle.

I don't say all wines will taste different in different glasses, but I enjoy a good wine, cognac, beer, whisk(e)y more when it's served in the proper glass.

That's what I hear from the expensive alcohol snobs, hence the reason for wanting to create the Glass test. Knowing I am holding a glass that is suppose to make it taste better might create a bias.

 

[DepricatedZero]

That's what I hear from the expensive alcohol snobs, hence the reason for wanting to create the Glass test. Knowing I am holding a glass that is suppose to make it taste better might create a bias.

As an alcohol-fan but not wino:

Both of the following factors make sense as to why the shape of a glass alters the flavor of a wine
The first is exposure to oxygen, which affects sparkling wines in a manner similar to soda. It goes flat, as it were, and so a tall, fluted glass with a narrow mouth would be ideal as it minimizes exposure to oxygen. I've heard oxygen also affects the flavor of other wines.
The other is temperature. It's common enough knowledge that temperature changes the flavor of damn near everything. A hard boiled egg tastes different cold than it does hot, and Americans have to freeze their beer to keep from tasting how bad it is. A large bottomed wine glass would encourage holding from the glass and heating the wine (with body heat) while holding.

I don't think it's as big a difference as winos make it out to be, but these two bits are probably the base of the superstition.

 

[RichardMNixon]

[Americans have to freeze their beer to keep from tasting how bad it is.

I keep my European beer as cold as the Rockies Alps too.

On a sadder note, my German officemate declared Coors Light the best American beer in his estimation. :facepalm:


I have separate glasses for my whiskey, but that's mostly so they just stay clean and don't get milk/fat residue and such on them.

 

[FatStupidAmerican]

Seriously guys.

You are missing the point. Everything you are listing about the supposed glass shape and wine relationship... I've read it before.

I am trying to figure out how I can TEST those claims.

F*cking snobs.


*Cracks open a PBR*

 

[derkvanl]

That's what I hear from the expensive alcohol snobs, hence the reason for wanting to create the Glass test. Knowing I am holding a glass that is suppose to make it taste better might create a bias.

How you drink something also affects the taste of it. A well suited glass helps with that. And yes holding the glass also makes a difference. (not a snob, just have had the chance to taste a lot of different drinks in 20 years of work in restaurants).

I named cognac, because it's an easy to understand drink, and the difference between a good and a bad glass is very big. Try it yourself.

 

[FatStupidAmerican]

I named cognac, because it's an easy to understand drink, and the difference between a good and a bad glass is very big. Try it yourself.

YES I am trying to "try it myself" that is why I am trying to create a controlled test......

Am I speaking the wrong language or something?

 

[RichardMNixon]

YES I am trying to "try it myself" that is why I am trying to create a controlled test......

Am I speaking the wrong language or something?

I don't think you can. The problem is that I don't think you appreciate wine (not judging you, I'm not a fan either and think some of the flavor descriptions given to wine are downright silly, "notes of toast" is my personal favorite). If you buy a cheap wine and swig it down, it doesn't matter. If you buy fancy wines that you want at the right temperature (which we've agreed does matter) and you want to smell them, and look at the legs, and all that jazz, then the glass does matter. No, the glass doesn't significantly change the chemical reactions that occur on your tongue, but to some people that's only a very small part of drinking wine.

Also, PBR is really your example of not snobby? That's the beer hipsters drink because drinking bad beer makes them cooler than people who drink good beer.

 

[FatStupidAmerican]

I don't think you can. The problem is that I don't think you appreciate wine

Why does it matter if you THINK i appreciate wine? A TASTE test can still be created to see if people can actually tell the difference between wine in one containment method over another.

If you buy a cheap wine and swig it down, it doesn't matter.

Who said anything about swigging wine?

If you buy fancy wines that you want at the right temperature (which we've agreed does matter) and you want to smell them, and look at the legs, and all that jazz, then the glass does matter. No, the glass doesn't significantly change the chemical reactions that occur on your tongue, but to some people that's only a very small part of drinking wine.

This is what I am trying to look at here. It is possible that all the staring at the glass, the wine glass selection, and the constant agitation of the red wine etc. etc. that everyone does to "Make the wine taste better" could all be in their damn heads. Think of James Randi's challenge he has for those 7k speaker cables that claim to make your music sound better.

Also, PBR is really your example of not snobby? That's the beer hipsters drink because drinking bad beer makes them cooler than people who drink good beer.

It's not Hipster-ish beer snobbery because I got my PRB at WalMart, not a the Local-independent-free trade-vegan-farmer's market. I also didn't pay for it with my parent's money or take it home on my Fixed-gear bike.

 

[derkvanl]

I named cognac, because it's an easy to understand drink, and the difference between a good and a bad glass is very big. Try it yourself.

YES I am trying to "try it myself" that is why I am trying to create a controlled test......

Am I speaking the wrong language or something?

You ask how to test the difference. What is wrong with my answer. You seem to explode a bit about it?

 

[RichardMNixon]

I think it can be tested. It is nothing more and a taste test, but the difference is that it is not a taste test regarding the drink itself, it is testing the chosen containment method.

But the wineglass isn't just containment, it's a method of delivery. It controls how much you smell and how much comes in a sip. I don't think I'm as snobby about coffee as wine aficionados are about wine, but I won't drink coffee through a straw. For starters the tongue isn't uniform, different parts taste different things, so drinking out of a straw and thus drastically changing the route of entry to the mouth is a HUGE difference.

Your proposal is like testing a BMW engine by putting it in a Hummer as a control. There's more to wine than just what it does to your tongue and the glass is an element of the full "wine experience." Even if you conclusively showed that people can't tell the difference, I'm sure there's people who would still want wine glasses so they could swirl the wine a certain way.

As far as cheap beer, on this side of the country we have Yuengling for ~$0.75 a can, which as I'm reading now is apparently Obama's favorite beer. Stouts are definitely the way to go though.

You ask how to test the difference. What is wrong with my answer. You seem to explode a bit about it?

He's looking for a way to do it blind, so he can drink cognac out of a cognac glass and out of coffee mug without knowing which is which and see if one tastes better.

Edit: you changed your post a lot.

Who said anything about swigging wine?

You did when you proposed a straw.

This is what I am trying to look at here. It is possible that all the staring at the glass, the wine glass selection, and the constant agitation of the red wine etc. etc. that everyone does to "Make the wine taste better" could all be in their damn heads. Think of James Randi's challenge he has for those 7k speaker cables that claim to make your music sound better.

But this is my point, you're assuming that all people want out of a good wine is the chemical reaction on their tongue. Without even getting into whether or not it affects the taste or smell or any sensation whatsoever, the majority of wine drinkers would vastly prefer holding a stemmed glass to a pint glass or coffee mug. It's thin and clear so you can see the color of the wine. That is desirable. It may not matter to you, but its yet another reason people use a wine glass.

I would of course be terribly wary of anyone trying to sell you a wine glass that "tastes better" than other wine glasses, but using any wine glass over a coffee mug is preferable to most people without even worrying about the physics of it.

 

[FatStupidAmerican]

But the wineglass isn't just containment, it's a method of delivery. It controls how much you smell and how much comes in a sip.

Right, and smell is not something that is going to be eliminated. I am thinking to account for smell properly, while drinking wine from a glass straw, the participant would have a glass (of the same type) placed under their nose (Same distance each time) so they can smell the wine in the glass. I see the straw as necessary because you can't have the participant handling the glass as they would be able to identify the glass.[/quote]

I don't think I'm as snobby about coffee as wine aficionados are about wine, but I won't drink coffee through a straw. For starters the tongue isn't uniform, different parts taste different things, so drinking out of a straw and thus drastically changing the route of entry to the mouth is a HUGE difference.

Not meant to be a dick like comment, source? Cause it would be important to a development of a blind test. Since the participants wont be comparing drinking from a glass from drinking for a straw I don't see how this is problem. They will be drinking the same batch of wine in a repeatable manner. Unless the flow of wine in regards to the apreture of the glass can change the taste on the tongue.

Your proposal is like testing a BMW engine by putting it in a Hummer as a control.

And how is that? When you test and engine you actually remove it from car and run it on these dohickies.
http://www.allpar.com/images/chrysler/tech-center/engine-test-cell.jpg
This allows the engineers to remove factors of wind resistance, weight of the chassi, driver style etc.

Which is what I am attempting to do with creating a blind test.

There's more to wine than just what it does to your tongue and the glass is an element of the full "wine experience."

I am sure there is a whole "culture" to wine and the "wine experience." I am trying to test the taste of the wine in regards to the physical properties of the glass. The whole enhancement of the flavor could all be placebo.

Even if you conclusively showed that people can't tell the difference, I'm sure there's people who would still want wine glasses so they could swirl the wine a certain way.

So? That doesn't stop me from wanting to know.

As far as cheap beer, on this side of the country we have Yuengling for ~$0.75 a can, which as I'm reading now is apparently Obama's favorite beer. Stouts are definitely the way to go though.

You ask how to test the difference. What is wrong with my answer. You seem to explode a bit about it?

He's looking for a way to do it blind, so he can drink cognac out of a cognac glass and out of coffee mug without knowing which is which and see if one tastes better.[/quote]

Internet tone FTW. I did roll my eyes. You are basically just telling me the things I found a google, the stuff I am trying to test.

Who said anything about swigging wine?

You did when you proposed a straw.

I thought swigging was downing it fast. Despite using a straw, I would have the participants go through the same swooshing/gargling thing the wine-os do when they are out wine tasting.

But this is my point, you're assuming that all people want out of a good wine is the chemical reaction on their tongue. Without even getting into whether or not it affects the taste or smell or any sensation whatsoever, the majority of wine drinkers would vastly prefer holding a stemmed glass to a pint glass or coffee mug. It's thin and clear so you can see the color of the wine. That is desirable. It may not matter to you, but its yet another reason people use a wine glass.

I would of course be terribly wary of anyone trying to sell you a wine glass that "tastes better" than other wine glasses, but using any wine glass over a coffee mug is preferable to most people without even worrying about the physics of it.

No I am not. I am trying to isolate the flavor factors and eliminate the placebo to see if wine actually taste better in its suitable glass.

I don't give two shits what wine drinkers want. I want to know if glass X makes wine Y taste better, minus the experience, minus the established belief that the glass does improve the flavor.

If the claim was drinking A wine from B glass makes the "wine experience" better then there would be nothing to test. The claim is that the glass makes wine taste better.

 

[RichardMNixon]

Not meant to be a dick like comment, source? Cause it would be important to a development of a blind test. Since the participants wont be comparing drinking from a glass from drinking for a straw I don't see how this is problem. They will be drinking the same batch of wine in a repeatable manner. Unless the flow of wine in regards to the apreture of the glass can change the taste on the tongue.

Good call, apparently this is just a lie they teach in elementary school. The only one I've ever paid attention to is bitterness, which I would still insist is, with me at least, more evidence in the back of the tongue. I definitely swallow coffee and beer differently from how I swallow water and the taste changes as I do so. Is this not something most people observe? I suppose swallowing isn't terribly important to winos if they spit it out at tastings.


I think one important thing to consider in your test is how fast these hypothesized changes happen in the wine and are they what is significant. Does the aeration of a red wine happen over 10 seconds or 10 minutes? If the latter, you could sit one sample in a wine glass, another in your control, then pour the control glass into a wine glass at the last minute to be sampled, maybe pour the wine glass into a different wine glass also so you have the same number of pours. Then both samples are coming from a wine glass but one has technically been properly aerated and the other hasn't.

Alternatively perhaps give one sample which has just been poured into a wine glass and one which has sat for 10 minutes. Hypothetically the latter one will be better aerated and have more vapors built up in the glass.

However, I think your biggest problem is that from my understanding, the smelling is the most important reason for a wine-glass. Trying to get them to smell the same way as you isolate taste seems pointless, and I'd imagine the results will vary widely as to how successful you were in getting the smelling to match between samples.

 

[FatStupidAmerican]

"...............so drinking out of a straw and thus drastically changing the route of entry to the mouth is a HUGE difference. "


Excuse me, but that is what I wanted a source for.

Does your drink coming from a straw change the way your experience its flavor as opposed to it flowing from a glass.