Will the US ever be embarrased enough to change the Flag?

[JustBusiness17]

Hypothetically, some time in the future, do you think the American population will come to the consensus that their flag represents a shameful course of history? In other words, will the US ever change the flag in disgust over the current, historic, and future behaviours of the country?

I currently know of a couple flags that carry a strong negative connotation based on what seems so obviously intollerable behaviour. First is the confederate flag which has roots an American stuggle for power. Another flag now relegated to the cult fringes of society is the Nazi flag and swastika. Is it really fair to draw comparison between those movements and the neo-colonial behaviour of American culture? It would probably be unwise to forget the past and not to reflect on human history. It's not like we can claim we're "beyond it" considering there were two world wars fought within the last century...

The link between the Confederates, Nazi Germany, and America's chosen path, is that they were all trying to impose a class based system on the world (though more localized in the case of the confederates). Whether Blacks vs Whites, Jews vs Aryans, or the more subtle subversion of people that occurs in the US socio-economical system. The word Second Class Citizen comes to mind. Classes like "illegals", "fags", "heathens", "vagrants", "Arabs", and even "sick" are normal political discourse in the States. And for what purpose? To draw dividing lines in the sand while encouraging segregation?

It's that kind of artificial enemy mentality that fuels wars and incites hatred in the world... Unfortunately, much much more of the US mentality is highly artificial. Namely this includes those people holding power who need to voluntarily relinquish it in order to create a closer level of fairness and equality on our planet. But at the moment, the typical upper class response always seems to be something along the lines of "let them eat cake" :arrow:

So, will the US ever look back with shame over their demographic and geographic terrorism? Will the "stars and stripes" command the same respect in the future as certain people assert today? On a scale of "Don't let it touch the ground" to "Set it on fire", how much respect does the flag even deserve today?

 

[Commander Eagle]

Re: Will the US ever be embarrased enough to change the Flag

On a scale of "Don't let it touch the ground" to "Set it on fire", how much respect does the flag even deserve today?

Quite a bit. America isn't perfect, but no country is. We have idiots in government, but so does everyone else. And despite what the FOX news team would have you believe, civil rights and rationalism are making headway in America. It isn't easy going, and it isn't going quickly, but it is happening, and I give kudos to the country for making the attempt.

Hanging out on places like PrisonPlanet and AnswersInGenesis is not a good way to get an idea of how the average American thinks. Despite the voices on the news, most Americans are fairly accepting, easygoing people, even if we do have rather large egos. But the ones who get air time are the crazies, so they're all you ever see.

Moderates and rationals do not make for entertaining viewing.

 

[Nemesiah]

Re: Will the US ever be embarrased enough to change the Flag

On a scale of "Don't let it touch the ground" to "Set it on fire", how much respect does the flag even deserve today?

... civil rights and rationalism are making headway in America...

The problem is that while America is becoming more tolerant and mor social(ist) and more libertarian etc... the Atrocities it is commiting overseas and that it has commited in the past to the rest of the world speak of a barbarism, hate and a disregard for others that had not been seen in some time now.

Please understand that while Hollywood portrays Americans as the heroes of th world, the rest of the world just see the insane wars, the unstopable greed, the fundamentalist views etc... and nowadays the free media (not necesarily prission planet) concurr in that american warmongering is getting out of control; while Most people understand that individual americans are every day folk that worry about their mortages they also see the asociate of americans as a nigh unstopable force of evil that is destroyin the lives of billions of people through economic, military and cultural attacks on the rest of the world.

When USA's cars run on the blood of Iraki innocents it's hard to be sympathetic to americans even if the individual americans are no more evil that the average joe from Irak.

You guys have to stop the madness from within else you keep alienating yourselves from the world that is getting more and more fed up with your exterior policies.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Re: Will the US ever be embarrased enough to change the Flag

On a scale of "Don't let it touch the ground" to "Set it on fire", how much respect does the flag even deserve today?

The flag deserves zero respect. People deserve respect, ideas and principles deserve respect. A flag is just a piece of cloth... something that too many Americans have forgotten or maybe never knew.

 

[JustBusiness17]

Re: Will the US ever be embarrased enough to change the Flag

Despite the voices on the news, most Americans are fairly accepting, easygoing people, even if we do have rather large egos. But the ones who get air time are the crazies, so they're all you ever see.

Moderates and rationals do not make for entertaining viewing.

It's wonderful to visualize the average American as a someone that minds his own business and has no power to do anything about the corruption in the system. Unfortunately, not having the power to do anything doesn't apply to an entire population. The American people are apathetically complicit in crimes against humanity. I'm not even just talking about the wars, but the destabilization of third world nations by corrupting governments and dealing arms. It doesn't make sense until you realize that they're stealing resources right from underneath their feet. It's hard to compete with an international oil company (let alone enforce environmental regulation) while the country is at war with itself :geek:

On a scale of "Don't let it touch the ground" to "Set it on fire", how much respect does the flag even deserve today?

The flag deserves zero respect. People deserve respect, ideas and principles deserve respect. A flag is just a piece of cloth... something that too many Americans have forgotten or maybe never knew.

Good point. For arguments sake, lets assume the US flag is a perfect representation of America's combined actions -past, present, and future. The question then becomes, will there ever be a point where the value and pride of heritage is overcome by a senseless history of abused power? Power that pushed civilization in one of the worst possible directions - Post-Industrial Feudalism... Enough to retire the most prominent symbol of Neocolonial Economic Imperialism?

 

[Commander Eagle]

Re: Will the US ever be embarrased enough to change the Flag

The problem is that while America is becoming more tolerant and mor social(ist) and more libertarian etc... the Atrocities it is commiting overseas and that it has commited in the past to the rest of the world speak of a barbarism, hate and a disregard for others that had not been seen in some time now.

Please understand that while Hollywood portrays Americans as the heroes of th world, the rest of the world just see the insane wars, the unstopable greed, the fundamentalist views etc... and nowadays the free media (not necesarily prission planet) concurr in that american warmongering is getting out of control; while Most people understand that individual americans are every day folk that worry about their mortages they also see the asociate of americans as a nigh unstopable force of evil that is destroyin the lives of billions of people through economic, military and cultural attacks on the rest of the world.

Oh, I never said we were perfect, or that the wars were a good thing. Bush was the biggest idiot to ever hold office. I still have hopes for Obama, though. As far as I can tell, he is at least making an attempt to wind down the wars, but extricating ourselves from the damage that Bush did isn't going to be easy.

Like I said, we're not perfect, but we are trying.

Despite the voices on the news, most Americans are fairly accepting, easygoing people, even if we do have rather large egos. But the ones who get air time are the crazies, so they're all you ever see.

Moderates and rationals do not make for entertaining viewing.

It's wonderful to visualize the average American as a someone that minds his own business and has no power to do anything about the corruption in the system. Unfortunately, not having the power to do anything doesn't apply to an entire population. The American people are apathetically complicit in crimes against humanity.

Did we not vote Democrat this time? You must understand that there really is very little that the American people can do once a President is in office other than voting for someone else. We could attempt impeachment, but it's almost impossible to get that to go through.

The question then becomes, will there ever be a point where the value and pride of heritage is overcome by a senseless history of abused power? Power that pushed civilization in one of the worst possible directions - Post-Industrial Feudalism...

Post-industrial feudalism? What are you talking about? :|

 

[JustBusiness17]

Re: Will the US ever be embarrased enough to change the Flag

Oh, I never said we were perfect, or that the wars were a good thing. Bush was the biggest idiot to ever hold office. I still have hopes for Obama, though. As far as I can tell, he is at least making an attempt to wind down the wars, but extricating ourselves from the damage that Bush did isn't going to be easy.

Like I said, we're not perfect, but we are trying.

What level of trying is adequate though? The only people I see protesting anything are the crazy as hell Tea Baggers :roll:

Did we not vote Democrat this time? You must understand that there really is very little that the American people can do once a President is in office other than voting for someone else. We could attempt impeachment, but it's almost impossible to get that to go through.

So showing up one day every 4 years is the most anyone can do?

The question then becomes, will there ever be a point where the value and pride of heritage is overcome by a senseless history of abused power? Power that pushed civilization in one of the worst possible directions - Post-Industrial Feudalism...

Post-industrial feudalism? What are you talking about? :|

Its feudalism adjusted for todays knowledge about business and world economy.

The fief (alternatively, fee, feoff, (incorrectly) fiefdom), under the system of medieval European feudalism, is often consisted of inheritable lands or revenue-producing property granted by a lord. This is generally a vassal (who holds seisin) in return for a form of allegiance (usually given by homage and fealty). This vassal originally gave one the means to fulfill ones military duties when called upon. However, anything of value could be held in fief, such as an office, a right of exploitation (e.g., hunting, fishing) or any other type of revenue, rather than the land it comes from.

A fief for your loyalty Mr. Lobbyist Man?

 

[Nemesiah]

Re: Will the US ever be embarrased enough to change the Flag

Unfortunately, not having the power to do anything doesn't apply to an entire population. The American people are apathetically complicit in crimes against humanity. I'm not even just talking about the wars, but the destabilization of third world nations by corrupting governments and dealing arms. It doesn't make sense until you realize that they're stealing resources right from underneath their feet. It's hard to compete with an international oil company (let alone enforce environmental regulation) while the country is at war with itself :geek:

I'm not defending the american way of doing things abroad, in Mexico we get a lot of america's evil manipulations and asymetric deals, yet your argument is valid through out the world.

Didn't the UK side with america in invading Irak? didn't Spain? Am I not ("aren't I" sounds plain wrong) bathing my hands in blood by using an american made computer that uses plastic which most likely came from petrol from Irak? Why do I watch american movies? visit american sites? Read american books? Shouldn,´t I express my discontent by hitting america where it hurts? not buying anything american ever again; boycoting american values and culture by not accepting them?

Now, I understand that my one sixbillionth of the economy doesn,´t worry america one bit, but say all of Mexico's (130 millions)?

I'm a vegetarian I vote against factory farming three times a Day, why does voting against america seems so impossible?

If people stop buying american cars because they are inneficient petrol hungry behemoths, americans (who despite being many other things are somewhat economicaly savy) would start making fuel efficient cars. If we stop consuming american gas because it comes from Irak Americans will have no incentive to keep murdering in order to steal.

Americans have to be the ones to do this most fervently since wars like these are taking away their identities, their freedoms and their society which they value so much.

It is wishfull thinking that we are not all responsible of the deaths that come from this imperialistic ocupations since we all benefit from them.

We are not violent people so we are not going to be violent about the way we change the world, but changes come despite what people think, apostaty was grounds for the death penalty a few years ago; in america there is people trying to bring that practice back, they try to consolidate the "christian nation". Most americans, I think won't abide by this so they dont vote for these wakos, they don't donate to the curch of insane hatred and fanatism: in the same way people need to stop donating to the curch of blood oil and stop electing oil company employees as senators, understand that a car is not necesary, it is convinient, that eating pineapples in chicago and salmon in florida is not justifyable when the world is "demonstrably" going to hell thanks to the over use of fosil fuels.

All these are synthoms of a population that is alienated to the extreme and that sees it's worth only through consumism; this did not just happend it was engineered. Since americans (and sadly mexicans and many others in the world) see their life in terms of what you own, and how much you can spend in binge streaks, the idea of not consuming american goods is seen as imposible yet it is not so.

Beter education (not job training but human development) is needed so that americans understand that it is not right to murder muslims just because God told Bush to do so; the same education would allow others to stop consuming what they believe is ill gotten by america and in this way we the "little people" (all six billion of us) could in fact stop "the evil powerfull" dead in their tracks.

We are all responsible for the change.

 

[Commander Eagle]

Re: Will the US ever be embarrased enough to change the Flag

What level of trying is adequate though? The only people I see protesting anything are the crazy as hell Tea Baggers :roll:

Like I said, only crazies get air time. No one cares about non-sensational viewpoints.

So showing up one day every 4 years is the most anyone can do?

In a nutshell, yes. Of course, you can also vote for your local government, bring issues to the attention of representatives, et cetera. And many people do so. But, like I said, they don't get noticed.

Its feudalism adjusted for todays knowledge about business and world economy.

And by this you mean...?

 

[creamcheese]

Re: Will the US ever be embarrased enough to change the Flag

Personally I don't give a fuck what my country does overseas, or who they kill, or what they steal. As long as I have somewhere to live and freedom to do as I please, IMHO my government is doing it's job. If yours is the country getting fucked up to make my country prosperous and free, then you should be the one to tell your government to change, and be capable of defending you.

Might makes right, bro.

 

[JustBusiness17]

Re: Will the US ever be embarrased enough to change the Flag

Personally I don't give a fuck what my country does overseas, or who they kill, or what they steal. As long as I have somewhere to live and freedom to do as I please, IMHO my government is doing it's job. If yours is the country getting fucked up to make my country prosperous and free, then you should be the one to tell your government to change, and be capable of defending you.

Might makes right, bro.

Wow, a real world case of Jingoism :geek:

Cultural Dictionary

jingoism definition

Extreme and emotional nationalism, or chauvinism, often characterized by an aggressive foreign policy, accompanied by an eagerness to wage war.

The American Heritage,® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright ,© 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Cite This Source

http://forums.leagueofreason.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5042&p=67471&hilit=popaganda#p67471

We all live on the same planet, and if you haven't noticed - The "Industrialized Nations" have been cooking us alive :arrow:

That view just seems a little too acute within its narrowness... Intensifying world conflict is bad for business and sooner or later, EVERYTHING will crash! Trust and respect make for a peaceful world. We need you on that bandwagon :arrow: The one you're on is headed for disaster :?

But Please - Feel free to express your entire perspective on how the world should work based on this philosophy of yours :geek:

 

[Nemesiah]

Re: Will the US ever be embarrased enough to change the Flag

Personally I don't give a fuck what my country does overseas, or who they kill, or what they steal. As long as I have somewhere to live and freedom to do as I please, IMHO my government is doing it's job. If yours is the country getting fucked up to make my country prosperous and free, then you should be the one to tell your government to change, and be capable of defending you.

Might makes right, bro.

Seriously... words are insuficient.. smileys might be better

:!: :shock: :facepalm: ... :facepalm: :facepalm:

Please, how do I block this fellow?

 

[Commander Eagle]

Re: Will the US ever be embarrased enough to change the Flag

I think he may be satirizing jingoism rather than espousing it.

 

[Nemesiah]

Re: Will the US ever be embarrased enough to change the Flag

I think he may be satirizing jingoism rather than espousing it.

Did I just get Poe'd?

 

[Commander Eagle]

Re: Will the US ever be embarrased enough to change the Flag

I think he may be satirizing jingoism rather than espousing it.

Did I just get Poe'd?

I think so, yeah.

 

[Prolescum]

Re: Will the US ever be embarrased enough to change the Flag

I kid, I kid... but no, really.

 

[JustBusiness17]

Re: Will the US ever be embarrased enough to change the Flag

I think he may be satirizing jingoism rather than espousing it.

Did I just get Poe'd?

Well, creamcheese isn't exactly anti-war :arrow:

http://forums.leagueofreason.org.uk/viewtopic.php?p=48422#p48422

The question comes down to the degree of CC's pro-war beliefs...

 

[Nemesiah]

Re: Will the US ever be embarrased enough to change the Flag

The question comes down to the degree of CC's pro-war beliefs...

Lets just hope he is a Poe, While I,´m sure that individuals like those exist (hence the capacity for poeing), life is too short and precious to waste on them.

 

[Ad Initium]

Re: Will the US ever be embarrased enough to change the Flag

There is no reckognized nation at this time in this world that does not have some dark past.

Name me one CLEAN nation ...

I think even the smallest island nations in this world will have some blood written in their history.

Bad things that happened in the past, ... should not make you feel bad about your past, ... should not make you feel bad about your National flag.

 

[Nemesiah]

Re: Will the US ever be embarrased enough to change the Flag

There is no reckognized nation at this time in this world that does not have some dark past.

Name me one CLEAN nation ...

I think even the smallest island nations in this world will have some blood written in their history.

Bad things that happened in the past, ... should not make you feel bad about your past, ... should not make you feel bad about your National flag.

Bad things that happened in the past, ... should not make you feel bad about your past, ... should not make you feel bad about your National flag.

Then how would we lern from our mistakes? While you are not killing people in Irak (I hope) you are responsible for what your conuntry does; and you are the ones that can change it; yes; you the average joe can make the systematic murder of muslim innocents stop. If you do nothing to stop this then you have good reason to feel ashamed since your flag now symbolizes warmongering all around the world. I don't know if there are "clean cuntries" but the inexistence of these does not condone what is happennig now.

You don't have to save the world; you just have to stop your country from killing it.