Why I want YOU to pray

[Andiferous]

Well, I'm sorry it comes off that way, I suppose I'm a bit out of sorts today, but it was meant well.

 

[RedYellow]

Oh, great time-space continuum, please allow me to experience more pleasurable circumstances without having to do the work myself to get there, before you swallow me up into the great swirling mass of physical interaction from which I did grow like a fungus! I know that my happiness probably only has relevance to my own subjective experience, and you could care less if a giant rock comes along and just wipes out the entire history of life on Earth tomorrow, but some guy on the internet told me that doing this might maybe have some vague result, so......yeah.


Did I do it right?

 

[Andiferous]

Oh, great time-space continuum, please allow me to experience more pleasurable circumstances without having to do the work myself to get there, before you swallow me up into the great swirling mass of physical interaction from which I did grow like a fungus! I know that my happiness probably only has relevance to my own subjective experience, and you could care less if a giant rock comes along and just wipes out the entire history of life on Earth tomorrow, but some guy on the internet told me that doing this might maybe have some vague result, so......yeah.


Did I do it right?

At the risk of stating the obvious, your post is a bit confusing...

Anyway, I'm the last person to post - did you mean the question for me? I really am confused...

 

[Vanlavak]

I'm going to respond to all your questions with this:
If you feel as though you have negative feelings toward the word prayer, I suggest you find another way to improve yourself.
I really expected 100% of the respondents here to hold negative feelings toward prayer due to hate for theists.
I appreciate the few here who saw prayer in it's true nature of calling on your mind and body to perform better.
Your actions focuses on opening your mind only work if you have faith in yourself doing them, in which if you have prejustice about prayer, then your predetermined beliefs will not allow you to advance yourself with anything you consider to be the same or similar .

 

[Andiferous]

Welcome Vanlavak, I don't think we've met (I hope I'm not mistaken). I haven't been around for a bit, so I'm guessing I've missed your introduction.

But in any event, I've pretty much resigned myself to being an atheist, but I am always interested and curious to understand that which I lack. I find topics like this interesting when approached without bias in a sincere, open-minded kind of discussion. I always like to learn more about other people's experiences and beliefs, because obviously, I'll never get to experience them myself.

I hope you understand when I say that in viewing this thread alone, you appear to be a bit defensive and your manner comes off as maybe a little bit secretive - which tends to seem suspect (at least on first meeting).

It's entirely possible that repeated insults and criticism have made you defensive and uncomfortable. I hope that if this is the case, then I'm sure transparency and persistence will earn you respect.

However, I myself find your posts rather cryptic and I do believe that if these things have deep meaning, you would do your utmost to be as clear as possible, as well as perhaps introducing yourself and stating your intentions in earnest. I haven't been around, so maybe I've missed this.

I know that if these are potentially really meaningful topics, I , for one would be interested in reading what you have to say. But I hope you will listen to others in turn too. This annoying friction/ miscommunication thing tends to dismiss the entire point of the thread, after all. I suspect it is difficult to walk into a lions' den of atheists and throw spiritual ideas into the mix, but if your point is meaningful enough to explain to everyone, I'm sure you'll get it across with patience and persistence, and it's probably most likely got across by speaking respectfully to whomever chooses to listen, really.

I hope this helps. I'm curious to see more of what you have to say.

I rather don't like sounding pedantic, but sometimes I need to be clear.

 

[IBSpify]

If you feel as though you have negative feelings toward the word prayer, I suggest you find another way to improve yourself.

For those of us that wish to improve ourselves i'm pretty sure we've already found it, it involves putting in the actual work and effort to make those improvements, consulting an imaginary being doesn't actually do anything to help.

I really expected 100% of the respondents here to hold negative feelings toward prayer due to hate for theists.

You'll find that very few people here hate theists. it's more of an annoyance of having theists tell us what we need to do.

I appreciate the few here who saw prayer in it's true nature of calling on your mind and body to perform better.
Your actions focuses on opening your mind only work if you have faith in yourself doing them, in which if you have prejustice about prayer, then your predetermined beliefs will not allow you to advance yourself with anything you consider to be the same or similar .

It's an unnecessary step, If I want to get into better shape I need to eat right and exercise, consulting a being which most likely doesn't exist, and even if it does exist does not manifest this existence in any form, doesn't actually do anything, and as such is wasted effort, even if the amount of effort is minuscule.

 

[Gnug215]

I'm going to respond to all your questions with this:
If you feel as though you have negative feelings toward the word prayer, I suggest you find another way to improve yourself.
I really expected 100% of the respondents here to hold negative feelings toward prayer due to hate for theists.
I appreciate the few here who saw prayer in it's true nature of calling on your mind and body to perform better.
Your actions focuses on opening your mind only work if you have faith in yourself doing them, in which if you have prejustice about prayer, then your predetermined beliefs will not allow you to advance yourself with anything you consider to be the same or similar .

Hi, I'm not sure, but it seems as if you missed my post.

While I agree that many here have reacted negatively, I think some have also reacted quite reasonably.

Why? Because for many of us it is a simple matter of definitions.

Let's see what dictionary.com says about "prayer":


prayer
1    [prair] Show IPA

noun
1.
a devout petition to God or an object of worship.

2.
a spiritual communion with God or an object of worship, as in supplication, thanksgiving, adoration, or confession.

3.
the act or practice of praying to God or an object of worship.

4.
a formula or sequence of words used in or appointed for praying: the Lord's Prayer.

5.
prayers, a religious observance, either public or private, consisting wholly or mainly of prayer.

---o---

As you can see, all of these definitions involve religious aspects.

Going by these definitions, is it not reasonable that a non-religious person would opt to NOT pray?

And going by these definitions, is it not reasonable that people here would react negatively to your request, either from a resistance towards religious practices, or from a disagreement with your seeming attempt to redefine the word "prayer"?

Had you used "medidate", or the like, I doubt you'd have gotten much static.

 

[Laurens]

I'm going to respond to all your questions with this:
If you feel as though you have negative feelings toward the word prayer, I suggest you find another way to improve yourself.
I really expected 100% of the respondents here to hold negative feelings toward prayer due to hate for theists.
I appreciate the few here who saw prayer in it's true nature of calling on your mind and body to perform better.
Your actions focuses on opening your mind only work if you have faith in yourself doing them, in which if you have prejustice about prayer, then your predetermined beliefs will not allow you to advance yourself with anything you consider to be the same or similar .

I'm pretty sure the problem is that people don't agree with you redefining prayer to mean what you want it to and then telling us we need to do it...

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

The problem here is that you're trying to yank the definition off of meditation and staple it to the word prayer and then call us blind atheists because we don't accept your dance and show.
Yes, we attended grade school.
Yes, we learned how to utilize a dictionary.
Yes, we are fully equitable to call bullshit on any single person who tries to push a staple hogwash definition of prayer on a message board for their own benefit.

Prayer is a petitioning of an act or intervention of a deity. Meditation is the calming of mind and body to focus upon the task or thought at hand. Prayer can cause some people to go into a meditative state, but prayer can also send hundreds of people into a scurried fanatic frenzy. You could push meditation (which is what basically prayer does to some people) instead of pushing the whole prayer ordeal itself.

Here's what you're basically doing. You take the definition of health - being healthy - and are stapling it to lettuce. Yes, eating lettuce can cause you to be healthy, but if you're just eating lettuce then your entire body is going to shut down and you'll be dead within a week.
Or, you know, you could just try to be healthy. Eat a steady diet from all over the pyramid and not just lettuce so that you get the full-on necessary vitamins, minerals, and amino acids required for the body to actually function.

 

[Prolescum]

I'm going to respond to all your questions with this:
If you feel as though you have negative feelings toward the word prayer, I suggest you find another way to improve yourself.

Giving up so soon? Isn't this thread titled Why I want YOU to pray?

The reason you gave initially was:

• So when you pray to what you believe to have infinite power (reality maybe) and believe really hard, you actually bring yourself to a new level of possible accomplishment because by submitting to something you believe is more powerful then you or infinitely powerful, of course at a conscience and sub-conscience level. Give up your bias and do things that work.

which, simply put, is you just stating that because prayer might have the same effect as a positive mental attitude, you should pray. It looks very much like an attempt to promote faith by the back door, is this what you're trying to do? Remember, honesty is important.
[showmore=Quick break down of the above statement]So when you pray to what you believe to have infinite power
what the hell does this mean? What do you mean by "ultimate power"? How does one "believe" in something that isn't even defined?
(reality maybe)
What? Reality has "ultimate power"?
...and believe really hard
in "ultimate power"? The inference here is that the "ultimate power" one should believe in has will, desires etc, ergo likely one of the anthropomorphic deities
...you actually bring yourself to a new level of possible accomplishment because by submitting to something you believe is more powerful then you or infinitely powerful, of course at a conscience and sub-conscience level.
You say one must commit an act of "faith" for it to work, and contend that it is an "ultimate power" to whom it is dedicated. You then go on to say I appreciate the few here who saw prayer in it's true nature of calling on your mind and body to perform better.

Which is it?[/showmore]

You also asked the question:

• If you don't think god exists, why are you so irrationally afraid of him?

For which I requested some clarity,

• 1) Which god? YHWH? Enlil? Danu? Quetzalcoatl? Elvis?
  2) Which part of my post gave you the impression I am afraid of gods?
  3) Is this a risible attempt at reverse psychology?

You haven't responded to those yet. Whenever you're ready.

I really expected 100% of the respondents here to hold negative feelings toward prayer due to hate for theists.

Why? It's irrational to hate billions of people for something as insignificant as whichever of the myriad gods they believe in. Are you that biased against a group of people you've hardly interacted with?

Why do you hold us in such contempt?

I appreciate the few here who saw prayer in it's true nature of calling on your mind and body to perform better.

What about the meaning of prayer in general use for some centuries as has been defined above? You yourself have invoked the "ultimate power" to which prayer is usually directed earlier in the discussion.

Your actions focuses on opening your mind only work if you have faith in yourself doing them, in which if you have prejustice about prayer, then your predetermined beliefs will not allow you to advance yourself with anything you consider to be the same or similar .

This is gibberish and should be stricken from the record; if you don't believe prayer works, it won't work... :lol:

 

[ImprobableJoe]

There's actually a bigger problem here:

So when you pray to what you believe to have infinite power (reality maybe) and believe really hard, you actually bring yourself to a new level of possible accomplishment because by submitting to something you believe is more powerful then you or infinitely powerful, of course at a conscience and sub-conscience level.

THAT DOESN'T MAKE ANY FUCKING GRAMMATICAL SENSE!!! Because by submitting, what the fuck is supposed to happen? You didn't finish the sentence. :lol:

Actually, no. The real problem is three-fold. One, I don't believe anything has infinite power, I don't even think anyone can actually understand what that means. Two, by begging for things from something that is undefined and incoherent and likely doesn't exist, how is that supposed to make you more capable of things? Three, begging is fucking pathetic, and anyone who suggests that I need to "submit" can piss up a fucking rope.

That's you, Vanlavak. Find a rope and drink some water, because I know exactly how you should spend your afternoon.

 

[Vanlavak]

I've been on here off and on, you probably just weren't forum browsing when I was posting.
I may have unintentionally became defensive from the large amount on negative feelings that seem to be expressed here.
My entire push for people like the people that browse these forums to pray and do other things they feel uncomfortable with is because I believe that ideas, concepts, and practices can be taken from existing culture and redefined to meet the needs of others.
The mental use of the idea of "ultimate power" is one way of helping yourself to not limit yourself to certain possibilities when it comes to meeting your goals so you can actually think more creatively, more free from instantaneously dismissing any notion of accomplishment greater then a personal glass ceiling you may subconsciously have set.
When you talk to yourself, your words have certain powers to influence your mind and your motivation, hence the more you trust your own words coming out of your own mouth, the more those words have power over your actions.

Why do you hold us in such contempt?

I was simply trying to cover some points that have arisen and might arise in this thread. It seems as though your entire post was fully intended to mock and hold me in contempt then accuse me of disrespecting and despising you guys.

 

[australopithecus]

I'm going to respond to all your questions with this:
If you feel as though you have negative feelings toward the word prayer, I suggest you find another way to improve yourself.

I have. It's called hard work and effort.

I'm going to respond to all your questions with this:
I really expected 100% of the respondents here to hold negative feelings toward prayer due to hate for theists.

Also,

My dislike for the concept of prayer has nothing to do with any feelings I have towards theists. For the record, I don't hate theists. I dislike the concept of prayer because it is a dissolution of responsibility for ones own actions. Also, it's useless and doesn't work. I dislike prayer for the same reason I dislike homeopathy.

I'm going to respond to all your questions with this:
I appreciate the few here who saw prayer in it's true nature of calling on your mind and body to perform better.

Except that's not what prayer is. That is, if anything, meditation. Prayer is asking for a 3rd party (usually a god of some sort) to interfere with the workings of reality in order to produce a result. That isn't calling on you to perform better, it's the exact opposite because you're not the one performing.

I'm going to respond to all your questions with this:
Your actions focuses on opening your mind only work if you have faith in yourself doing them, in which if you have prejustice about prayer, then your predetermined beliefs will not allow you to advance yourself with anything you consider to be the same or similar.

Bollocks.

 

[Prolescum]

The mental use of the idea of "ultimate power" is one way of helping yourself to not limit yourself to certain possibilities when it comes to meeting your goals so you can actually think more creatively, more free from instantaneously dismissing any notion of accomplishment greater then a personal glass ceiling you may subconsciously have set.

You are asserting that we (atheists) put up barriers to our own goals because we don't pray. This is preposterous.

When you talk to yourself, your words have certain powers to influence your mind and your motivation, hence the more you trust your own words coming out of your own mouth, the more those words have power over your actions.

Lol. We're all just energy, but energy with purpose.
Energy cannot be created or destroyed, so thought must be energy; so energy drives purpose.
Quantum mechanics.
The microcosm and the macrocosm.
Freedom.
9/11
Thought creates reality.
Wish hard enough, bend reality to your will and your heart's desire will be yours.

Is that what you're trying to say? Why aren't you answering any of the questions I so kindly wrote for you?

Why do you hold us in such contempt?

I was simply trying to cover some points that have arisen and might arise in this thread.

Oh really? So you were trying to "cover a point" when you said, give up your bias and do things that work?
You seem to be confused as to the difference between making a point, and barking orders based upon a faulty premise. I suggest you attend to it. Just after you actually answer the questions put to you.

It seems as though your entire post was fully intended to mock and hold me in contempt then accuse me of disrespecting and despising you guys.

Yep, unwarranted accusations of "disrespect and despising" us guys.

• You guys are so bias at the mere mention of prayer. If you don't think god exists, why are you so irrationally afraid of him?
  I love how you show not only that you didn't read the paragraph I so kindly wrote for you, but you also and using classical atheist ignorant bias toward any mention of prayer.
  If your afraid of praying just because you believe your above it or that it has weird qualities to it, then your being a bit superstitious, which is a bit unexpected for an atheist.
  If you feel as though you have negative feelings toward the word prayer, I suggest you find another way to improve yourself.

Actually, I asked valid questions which you've yet to answer. I don't hold you in contempt, I don't know you. I do, however, think your idea, as presented here, is risible and have no qualms about saying so.

 

[Anachronous Rex]

Notice how this goes down:

Because we point out that Vanlavak is operating on fallacious logic and distorted definitions, we are all irrational, hate filled, biased individuals. How rational.


Vanlavak, I have been nothing but nice to you and have even conceded a few points to your person. You, however, have shown neither me nor my comrades the same courtesy. If you want to try your hand at a response that is not loaded with strawmen and accusation be my guest, otherwise I intend to write you off as exactly the inane, close-minded bigot you accuse us of being.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

*Not an atheist.*

I still agree with everyone else in the thread aside from Van. And I have my own moments of meditation and prayer every so often.

 

[Master_Ghost_Knight]

As many have pointed out prayer is asking for a devine intervention, but what you have described is more closely related to meditation.
Sure meditation can have its benefits, it calms a person down by letting people momentarely forget about their worries, but it is a completly different ball park to say that it has supernatural powers of fulfilment. That is what we usualy call wishfull thinking. Sure you can believe very hard that Santa will bring you gifts if you have been nice (and you can as much of a case for Santa Clause as you can for the supernatural) but that doesn't make it real, neither should you expect that we take you serious when you try to convice us that Santa Clause is real and that we should write letters to the North Pole or else we don't get any presents.

 

[Jotto999]

"Give up your bias and do things that work."

The reason why I do not pray.

^^^

My position will rest at that until you demonstrate with empirical evidence that prayer does anything paranormal of any kind.

 

[Gnug215]

My entire push for people like the people that browse these forums to pray and do other things they feel uncomfortable with is because I believe that ideas, concepts, and practices can be taken from existing culture and redefined to meet the needs of others.

I've read this a number of times, and I still don't get what you mean here.

I also don't understand how it applies as a response to the post I made.

My main point being that you are, in fact (according to the dictionary), trying to redefine the term "prayer".

 

[Gramarye]

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