ImprobableJoe
New Member
I keep praying that the theists will get smarter and make better arguments, and it keeps on not working!!
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Why I want YOU to pray
- Thread starter Vanlavak
- Start date
ImprobableJoe said:
Silly Joe, it only works for personal accomplishments.
Now OP, if I understood you correctly the intent behind your "prayer" is to get better at something... for example maths, logical thinking, etc. Is that in essence correct? If it isn't, you need to explain in detail what Hytegia suggested.
If what I wrote is in essence correct, then my rebuttal would be the following: I have often wished for myself to perform better at a maths test. Some friends have prayed to be better at maths tests. What actually worked was that one nerdy girl in our class who actually did a few examples, revised a lot and in essence, DID SOMETHING. No amount of prayer (no matter how you define it, unless your definition of "prayer" is "working) will beat that.
Anachronous Rex
New Member
My thoughts on the topic:
I'm am perfectly willing to accept that prayer may have some psychological benefit, similar to placebo. However placebos are useful only in situations in which there is no actual medicine able to do the job.
Thousands of people prayed for hundreds of years that god might cure their Syphilis. I contend that the sum total of all their efforts was less effective than a single intramuscular injection of penicillin would have been. If all of that energy had instead been directed at advancing the field of medical science, many of those lives and minds would likely have been saved. Thousands of people just held a prayer rally in Texas to ask for rain, to virtually no effect. That time, energy, and most importantly money would all have been better spent investing in the future purchase an aqueduct to the rockies, or a desalination plant. I can think of countless more examples.
Contrastingly, the only example of a situation that comes to mind in which prayer might be useful is if you need to calm down and think/conserve oxygen. Even here there are options that would do the job better, though they may not be as readily accessible.
As for metaphysics... it would first have to be proven that there is any validity to metaphysics; which, thus far, no one has ever been able to do. The OP doesn't seem to contest this, so I'm not sure why it was even mentioned.
Further note that even though Vanlavak seems to have presented god as though it were a purely mental construct, he quickly reverts to referring to god as "him," and behaving as though this being is in some sense real:
Finally, it is in no sense unreasonable to conjecture that - if there is a god who responds to prayer - that this deity may be disinclined to answer favorably. Punishing those whose prayers he finds offensive for their hubris at having dared to ask. And, of course, who can say what such a being would find offensive, "You don't like that sixth finger I gave you! Well then, leukemia for you! See how you like that!"
I'm am perfectly willing to accept that prayer may have some psychological benefit, similar to placebo. However placebos are useful only in situations in which there is no actual medicine able to do the job.
Thousands of people prayed for hundreds of years that god might cure their Syphilis. I contend that the sum total of all their efforts was less effective than a single intramuscular injection of penicillin would have been. If all of that energy had instead been directed at advancing the field of medical science, many of those lives and minds would likely have been saved. Thousands of people just held a prayer rally in Texas to ask for rain, to virtually no effect. That time, energy, and most importantly money would all have been better spent investing in the future purchase an aqueduct to the rockies, or a desalination plant. I can think of countless more examples.
Contrastingly, the only example of a situation that comes to mind in which prayer might be useful is if you need to calm down and think/conserve oxygen. Even here there are options that would do the job better, though they may not be as readily accessible.
As for metaphysics... it would first have to be proven that there is any validity to metaphysics; which, thus far, no one has ever been able to do. The OP doesn't seem to contest this, so I'm not sure why it was even mentioned.
Further note that even though Vanlavak seems to have presented god as though it were a purely mental construct, he quickly reverts to referring to god as "him," and behaving as though this being is in some sense real:
This, to me, would suggest that Vanlavak doesn't really believe this argument himself, he is simply using it in an effort to steer those of us who are atheists towards theism. Which is deplorable, and exactly the sort of argument I would employ back when I was a theist.
Finally, it is in no sense unreasonable to conjecture that - if there is a god who responds to prayer - that this deity may be disinclined to answer favorably. Punishing those whose prayers he finds offensive for their hubris at having dared to ask. And, of course, who can say what such a being would find offensive, "You don't like that sixth finger I gave you! Well then, leukemia for you! See how you like that!"
australopithecus
Active Member
Vanlavak said:
I don't accept the concept of infinite power. Nor do I feel I need to defer to something more 'powerful' than myself in order to accomplish anything. Everything I've gained in my life has been through MY hard work. Like fuck am I going to let some nondescript, metaphysical bullshit take the credit.
No thanks, I'll do something useful like effort.
Vanlavak said:
Who said anything about fear? For future reference my feelings towards any god you care to mention can be summed up thusly:
DepricatedZero
New Member
nemesiss said:
word
but also:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Equestria,+Pretoria,+Gauteng,+South+Africa&hl=en&sll=36.5,-95.5&sspn=67.352301,170.683594&vpsrc=0&hnear=Equestria,+Pretoria,+Gauteng,+South+Africa&t=h&z=14
whatsinitforme
New Member
Prayer is basically meditation, which is a wonderful form of thought and reflection.
Vanlavak said:
It sounds to me as if you're trying to redefine prayer a bit.
I don't think you can take the religious aspect out of a prayer, and dictionary.com agrees with that.
What you are talking about really sounds like something else; meditation, positive thinking, a personal conversation with oneself, or as you say, a mantra or persona dedication.
Near the end it also sounds a bit as if you're recommending a placebo that we just have to ignore is a placebo, because only then will it work.
australopithecus
Active Member
whatsinitforme said:
Prayer asks for specific intervention from a third party, meditation doesn't.
)O( Hytegia )O(
New Member
Hell yes. But it still depends on how you define prayer. If you're doing something that partitions a supernatural entity for action or support, prayers can be vastly inclusive of a variety of rituals and practices - even the muttering of something as simple as "Gods damn it all" (and meaning it) is a prayer.
DepricatedZero said:
Equestria in the MLP-sense is a state, not city
in the same sense as traveling from amerika to moskou isn't just a few miles
http://maps.google.nl/maps?saddr=amerika&daddr=moskou,nederland&hl=nl&ll=53.064326,6.289673&spn=1.736346,6.674194&sll=53.82402,21.993895&sspn=13.670814,53.393555&geocode=FRooKgMdwThhACn1YtiJUzbIRzEbh2X29jfBmQ%3BFVpEKQMdTM9eAClTGKGUEkbIRzFE48OIlf8Ueg&vpsrc=6&mra=ls&t=m&z=8
nudger1964
New Member
I understand metaphysics to be the philosophy of life sciences, and as with all philosophy, its only real use is to propose questions which science can empirically try to answer.
Anachronous Rex
New Member
Anyone else frustrated by how this sort of thread tends to go? This sort of petulant nonsense is tiresome.
ImprobableJoe
New Member
Anachronous Rex said:
Not enough cowbell?
Andiferous
New Member
He hasn't broken any rules, geez, but in the frenzy of response, atheists sure come off as jerks. 
If there was any malicious intention here, I imagine it has already accomplished what it set out to do. If there is no malicious intention... then...
If there was any malicious intention here, I imagine it has already accomplished what it set out to do. If there is no malicious intention... then...
ImprobableJoe
New Member
You really dislike a lot of people here, don't you?Andiferous said:He hasn't broken any rules, geez, but in the frenzy of response, atheists sure come off as jerks.
Andiferous
New Member
If I were to say a divisive statement like that with sincerity and brutal honesty, do you think I would do so for people for whom I dislike?
ImprobableJoe
New Member
Andiferous said:
I would.