Why God allows pain...

[Tynk]

Well, this is my first forum post, I tend to lurk more in the irc channel. But I received an interesting email today and figured I would share it.
Just a little background first. I was baptized catholic as an infant, did my religion classes, first communion, confession, confirmation. Don't worry though, I got better. My family is all catholic including both my dads rural farmers (12 children) and my mothers urban upbringing (3 children). I would say most are not fundamentalists, though a few on my dads side I am concerned about. All of them are devout, at least outwardly. All that being said, one of my dads sisters got a hold of my email address and now I am privileged to receive her christian based email forwards at least once a week. They usually go straight to the trash, this one made me take pause though, I thought I would share. Here it is.


*******************************************************
: Why God allows pain...

This is one of the best explanations of why God allows pain and suffering that I have seen...

A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed.
As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation.
They talked about so many things and various subjects.
When they eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said: 'I don't believe that God exists.'

'Why do you say that?' asked the customer. 'Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God doesn't exist.
Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children?

If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain!
I can't imagine a loving God who would allow all of these things.'
The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he didn't want to start an argument.
The barber finished his job and the customer left the shop.

Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair and an untrimmed beard.
He looked dirty and unkempt.
The customer turned back and entered the barber shop again and he said to the barber:
'You know what? Barbers do not exist.'
'How can you say that?' asked the surprised barber.
'I am here, and I am a barber. And I just worked on you!'
'No!' the customer exclaimed. 'Barbers don't exist because if they did, there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like that man outside.'

'Ah, but barbers DO exist! That's what happens when people do not come to me.'
'Exactly!' affirmed the customer. 'That's the point! God, too, DOES exist! That's what happens when people do not go to Him and don't look to Him for help. That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world.'

If you think God exists, send this to other people---
If you think God does not exist, delete it!

BE BLESSED & BE A BLESSING TO OTHERS!!!!!!!

I really liked this! Again, I hope you share it with everyone!

 

[Gavin_Farewell]

This argument is semantic, really.

We know that barbers exist and we know that if we don't go to them we'll grow long hair and a beard (unless we shave our faces regularly or have a relative cut our hair... lol).

We do not know that God exists, but we do know that people who are devout Christians and people who are devout Muslims and people who are devout Buddhists and people who are hard atheists... get sick and die, are victims of crimes, get killed in war, fall on hard times, become homeless... so it would seem God would be an indiscriminate inflicter of suffering... or maybe God does not concern himself one iota with human affairs... or, there probably is no God.

All examples of suffering and joy and all the plethora of human experiences in between... all have earthly and corporeal explanations.

 

[brettpalmer]

Really? This is the "best"?

Ok, it's easy to test.

1.) Find a guy who needs a haircut and then go into a barbershop or salon and say you'd like to have him fixed up. Does it happen? If it does (and I've seen it work every time I, a family member, or someone I know goes into a shop to have their hair done), then barbers exist.

2.) Find a person who is suffering and tell them to ask God to make the suffering go away. Does it happen? If it does, and it does every time someone suffering asks for relief, then you've got yourself a good argument.

However, how many times have you heard a Christian say when someone asks God for something (like to cure cancer or feed all the hungry) and those prayers go unanswered that God really DID answer those prayers but the answer was "no"?

Maybe the guy DID come in to ask for a haircut but the barber just said "no"!

Sorry, it's a dumb story. But those are the sort that make the email rounds! :lol:

 

[Gavin_Farewell]

Unless the barber has a heart attack. :lol:

Guess someone shoulda prayed! :roll:

 

[Andiferous]

The argument is somewhat simplistic, but it looks like it's trying to dispute the argument that if god is omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and there is evil in the world, then he must both know people are hurting, have the power to do something about it, but refuse to do anything about it. The argument hinges on god's omniscience, omnibenevolence and so forth, and in order to dispute it, any counter argument would have to address those things.

'Why do you say that?' asked the customer. 'Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God doesn't exist.
Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children?

If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain!
I can't imagine a loving God who would allow all of these things.'

The main difference is the barber is not god. Were the barber to be in the same position, and because the argument hinges on all these omni-things, the barber would be omniscient, omnipotent, etc, and one awfully cool super-barber for his story to be a proper representation. Given these things, the barber could see all the long, wild and offensive mops in the world, and would also have the power to do something about them. If he so decides, he could nip the problem before shaggy hair could drag down people in the streets and all would be happy and rejoice. As it is, the allegory doesn't touch on the omni-things that were the basis of the first argument, so as a counter argument, it fails.

 

[Durakken]

please stop. Both sides of the argument are idiotic v.v The PoE/S is faulty and the common arguments against it are stupid v.v

 

[Aught3]

Assuming for a moment that the barber does have the power to keep the hair of everyone in check, the fact that he does not use this power shows that he does not care enough about us and allows long hair to exist. In the same way the existence of evil or suffering shows that God does not care enough about us and allows evil to exist when he has the power to remove it.

Also, God supposedly set up the evil system whereas the barber didn't have much say in the creation of hair.

 

[Squagnut]

I'm just trying to figure how this would fit in the "Proofs of God's Existence" format. Is it like this:

If you leave your hair to grow, it will become long and straggly.

If you go to a barber, your hair will be neat and tidy.

Therefore, God exists.

 

[TheTruePooka]

Everyone's missing an obvious flaw to this story.

According to the story;

"If you accept God, you have no pain."

This is a fairly easy to test statement. (please don't go punch a fundie in the face to test the hypothesis!)

So either no one has ever accepted God because everyone feels pain or it could just be...

he doesn't exist.

 

[Andiferous]

please stop. Both sides of the argument are idiotic v.v The PoE/S is faulty and the common arguments against it are stupid v.v

Firstly, I'm not making an argument. I'm just summing up the argument.
Secondly, when is the last time you've seen your barber?

I'm just trying to figure how this would fit in the "Proofs of God's Existence" format. Is it like this:

If you leave your hair to grow, it will become long and straggly.

If you go to a barber, your hair will be neat and tidy.

Therefore, God exists.

This might compliment that one nicely:

People get hurt because they don't believe in god and don't visit the godshop.

People get scruffy because they don't believe in the barber and don't visit the barbershop.

Being hurt is something like being scruffy.

Therefore, god is a barber.

 

[Nashy19]

Barbers aren't the cause of hair growth (if God exists, Gods the reason why our bodies require so much maintenance at such a high cost) and barbers are not omnipotent. I suppose what you are saying is that God made pain and suffering so he could sort the souls that fit his ridiculous requirements from those who don't, whether that be unreasonable faith, or in the case of miracles an unknown "God works is mysterious ways". I'm just saying that makes no sense, especially if you're assuming there is a perfect God.

 

[acheron]

People get hurt because they don't believe in god and don't visit the godshop.

People get scruffy because they don't believe in the barber and don't visit the barbershop.

Being hurt is something like being scruffy.

Therefore, god is a barber.

No no no...

Without a barber, humans become shaggy.

God is shaggy. (Supporting visual evidence: http://wshs.wtvl.k12.me.us/~social/w-hist/renaiss/artshow/4b-Adam.jpg )

Humans were made in God's image.

Therefore shagginess is the will of God.

Therefore barbers defy the will of God.

Thus, barbers are an unholy abomination in the eyes of God and must be cleansed from the face of the earth.

 

[acheron]

And a related question:

Can God make a pair of scissors strong enough to cut his own hair?

 

[Nashy19]

People get hurt because they don't believe in god and don't visit the godshop.

People get scruffy because they don't believe in the barber and don't visit the barbershop.

Being hurt is something like being scruffy.

Therefore, god is a barber.

No no no...

Without a barber, humans become shaggy.

God is shaggy. (Supporting visual evidence: http://wshs.wtvl.k12.me.us/~social/w-hist/renaiss/artshow/4b-Adam.jpg )
.

That's long hair, the bible says that it is shameful for a man to have long hair, God is perfect, thus this Yahweh must be a woman

 

[Andiferous]

Unless you're growing out your locks for god:

"As surely as the Lord lives, not a hair of his head will fall to the
ground, for he did this today with God's help.", I Samuel 14:45

 

[Gavin_Farewell]

God created gaseous vapors.

My cat just farted.

Therefore, there is a God.

 

[nemesiss]

Without a barber, humans become shaggy.

God is shaggy. (Supporting visual evidence: http://wshs.wtvl.k12.me.us/~social/w-hist/renaiss/artshow/4b-Adam.jpg )
.

That's long hair, the bible says that it is shameful for a man to have long hair, God is perfect, thus this Yahweh must be a woman

no, that makes god a bald redneck conversative republican.
which means... Satan is a hippie!
which means, im actaully.... A PANDA!

 

[Gavin_Farewell]

Holy fuck a panda.

You must type pretty good with that extra appendage on your hand.

 

[Durakken]

please stop. Both sides of the argument are idiotic v.v The PoE/S is faulty and the common arguments against it are stupid v.v

Firstly, I'm not making an argument. I'm just summing up the argument.
Secondly, when is the last time you've seen your barber?

I mean everyone, not you. The problem of Evil/suffering is a bad argument. The point of the argument. Or rather the true conclusion you're supposed to draw from it is x god can't have this trait and that trait logically thus x god can't exist. The argument is first off, failed, because if i can conceive of just one god that can fit that description the argument fails even though, Secondly, the argument is all together invalid, and Thirdly there is a fallacy in the argument.


And I haven't seen a barber in a few months. i though them out of existence. I have magic powers.

 

[Squagnut]

Here's where the problem lies:

Ah, but barbers DO exist! That's what happens when people do not come to me.'
'Exactly!' affirmed the customer. 'That's the point! God, too, DOES exist! That's what happens when people do not go to Him and don't look to Him for help. That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world.'

There is pain and suffering in the world because people don't go to God for help? I've not taken my car to a mechanic for repair for many years - not because it hasn't needed any repair, but because I do all the repairs myself.

There's a subtext to the conclusuion of that argument, one which imposes guilt on to people - pain and suffering is caused by people who don't turn to God. The argument says, effectively: "Our game of make-believe is only any good if everyone plays - if you don't play then the consequences are your fault." This message of guilt-in-love's-clothing has been putting me off religion for several decades now.