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Discussion thread for the blog entry "Why Do We Care?" by Th1sWasATriumph.
Permalink: http://blog.leagueofreason.org.uk/reason/why-do-we-care/
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Why Do We Care?
- Thread starter Blog of Reason
- Start date
Billions of people believe in what is rationally synonymous with fairies and the magic teapot. This makes the question "Why do you care?" very disappointing to hear, for me at least. Great post, I get this far too often ('at all' is too often. I hear it lots.).
Orkaney
New Member
I must admit I find it fun to discuss religion with biblethumpers and -pushers at times. Some of them are so locked up tight they barely see the light of day, so predictable it's sometimes sad.
On the other hand, I have a Muslim friend, we tell each other about benefits of our world view, he still hasn't provided me with any reasonable explanation for several things within his faith. It's Ramadan presently. He doesn't eat during certain hours. It's somewhat difficult to follow it here in Norway, the country being so far North, the sun doesn't go down soon enough. That fact doesn't even rock with his belief either, perhaps I haven't put it firmly enough forward yet. He's a decent guy, hard working, honest, he claims it's because of his faith, I claim it's his upbringing.
I've had a few careful discussions with my girlfriend too, she's a Buddhist. Part of her faith includes ghosts trying to revenge something done evil to them and dogs warning about their presence by howling. While visiting me, she never heard dogs howl, not even my very own dog, I tried reasoning with her on it several different ways, maybe I got through, maybe I didn't. Still, despite her faith, she doesn't rely on luck to come to her or pay to Buddha and wait for results, she goes in search for it, unlike so many I've seen in that faith.
Discussing religion with anyone is easy, discussing with friends and relatives is another matter. How do you balance maintaining a friendship despite their ever so hopeless dogmas?
On the other hand, I have a Muslim friend, we tell each other about benefits of our world view, he still hasn't provided me with any reasonable explanation for several things within his faith. It's Ramadan presently. He doesn't eat during certain hours. It's somewhat difficult to follow it here in Norway, the country being so far North, the sun doesn't go down soon enough. That fact doesn't even rock with his belief either, perhaps I haven't put it firmly enough forward yet. He's a decent guy, hard working, honest, he claims it's because of his faith, I claim it's his upbringing.
I've had a few careful discussions with my girlfriend too, she's a Buddhist. Part of her faith includes ghosts trying to revenge something done evil to them and dogs warning about their presence by howling. While visiting me, she never heard dogs howl, not even my very own dog, I tried reasoning with her on it several different ways, maybe I got through, maybe I didn't. Still, despite her faith, she doesn't rely on luck to come to her or pay to Buddha and wait for results, she goes in search for it, unlike so many I've seen in that faith.
Discussing religion with anyone is easy, discussing with friends and relatives is another matter. How do you balance maintaining a friendship despite their ever so hopeless dogmas?
I find it very frustrating too, dealing with that argument. My mother uses it all the time, as her only argument. I've even dismantled Karma for her. But, somehow it is still an equal alternate explanation, so long as no one is hurt. This is saddening considering she was my role model for skepticism, growing up. In the spirit of debate, I refrain from going too far. I live with her while I attend college, and I can't bite the hand that feeds. XD
However, I find a potential reason behind the argument made. Those that use the argument may be, genuinely, questioning their faith as well. Of course social pressure, imaginary audience syndrome, and personal fears are stunting their progress. I wouldn't put too much weight on that assumption, but it may be right
However, I find a potential reason behind the argument made. Those that use the argument may be, genuinely, questioning their faith as well. Of course social pressure, imaginary audience syndrome, and personal fears are stunting their progress. I wouldn't put too much weight on that assumption, but it may be right
lexiathan said:
Excellent article. I agree with pretty much everything you wrote and it pretty much sums up much of my position.
I quoted the post above for a reason. When I eventually informed my mother of my atheism (RE teacher, not creationist though) she brought out so many cannards it was bonkers, but the one that really got me was a supposed personal experience.
Basically she claims that she heard gods voice in her head when she was at a particularly low point. She told me this, then asked me to explain it. I had to restrain myself.
Hmm, lets see.
Possibility 1. It was a hallucination brought on my a depressed state, similar to the voices many people here in their head.
Possibility 2. Sky daddy really does exist, is all powerful, and was just letting you suffer with nothing but a word in the ear.
Yeah, right.
I held my tongue.
Giliell
New Member
I'd subscribe to the choclate inside religion any day. It would explain so many things and we could make eating choclate three times a day mandatory for followers :lol:
Now, why do I care?
If they'd leave me, my life, my friends' lives and the state alone, practising their faith as they see it fit and using only their money for their activities, I wouldn't give a damn. Life's too good to waste it on idiots.
But they don't, especially here in Germany (no, not many bible-thumpers but kinda state religion).
I had this discussion with a non-believing catholic friend of mine about private christian (roman catholic or lutherian protestant) schools. They get the same state money public schools get, add a little of their own money (paid by something called church-tax, collected by the state), sometimes make partents pay fees (not all of them), cherry-pick their students, so there are none from difficult social backgrounds, migrant children and so on and then claim that the church is doing a better job in educating kids than the state schools who have to deal with all the drop-outs, kids from poor families, migrant kids who don't speak German and who get too little money because that's spent on the christian ones.
That's why I care, because everybody's tax money is spent on christian children getting a better education than non-christian.
Now, why do I care?
If they'd leave me, my life, my friends' lives and the state alone, practising their faith as they see it fit and using only their money for their activities, I wouldn't give a damn. Life's too good to waste it on idiots.
But they don't, especially here in Germany (no, not many bible-thumpers but kinda state religion).
I had this discussion with a non-believing catholic friend of mine about private christian (roman catholic or lutherian protestant) schools. They get the same state money public schools get, add a little of their own money (paid by something called church-tax, collected by the state), sometimes make partents pay fees (not all of them), cherry-pick their students, so there are none from difficult social backgrounds, migrant children and so on and then claim that the church is doing a better job in educating kids than the state schools who have to deal with all the drop-outs, kids from poor families, migrant kids who don't speak German and who get too little money because that's spent on the christian ones.
That's why I care, because everybody's tax money is spent on christian children getting a better education than non-christian.
Th1sWasATriumph
New Member
Squawk said:
I must warn you; I am susceptible to flattery.
In a perfect world, you'd have been able to say something like: "Ok then, let's take the voices you heard in your head as conclusive proof for God. Ignoring for a moment all the people in asylums who hear things or see things that they think are true, does your personal experience validate the voices heard by the followers of ALL religions? Do you believe in these other Gods? Would you label the followers of these Gods as incorrect? How far does your argument logically extend; does personal experience of ANYTHING render it true? Does that mean aliens are real?"
But this isn't a perfect world. We've got to be nice.
Such a shame.
And yeah, Ockham territory; she was either hallucinating or delusional, something for which there is considerable precedent and proof, or there is a God (though almost certainly no other Gods but hers) despite no positive proof.
Great blogpost, this was the exact same thing I was hoping to get some discussion around in the chat some time today, as my first religion class is tomorrow, and I fear the teacher might be one of those who fear to give PC the finger and bring the real interesting questions.
And new picture! Grats!
And new picture! Grats!
Th1sWasATriumph
New Member
The thing to do is quietly but insistently explain what a religious belief IS, as a topic apart from individual offense or benefits, and if anyone disagrees with the assertion that it's a delusion you simply ask for proof that the concepts are real.
borrofburi
New Member
I agree completely here, in a conversation or debate about religion you absolutely need to be in a position where you demand evidence and they have to strive to get you some.Th1sWasATriumph said:
rabbitpirate
New Member
Great post, I think you must have been reading my mind when you wrote it though as this is pretty much exacly how I feel about the whole religion thing.
It is strange how weird beliefs, if held by a few, are viewed as odd and yet if thousands of people believe the same weird thing then it some how becomes acceptable and even normal. The question I like to ask is if everyone thought that they were Napoleon then would thinking that you were Napoleon still be considered crazy?
I actually have a number of religous friends and get on well with both the local pastor and our local Youth for Christ leader. I have helped them both out with a number of events in our area as, aside from the whole religious bit, they do a lot of good work. However we almost never talk about religion as in this area I simply can't respect them. I just don't get how people can be completely normal and rational in some aspects of their lives and yet believe so completely in the supernatural in another area.
That said I have also had unpleasant runins with moderate Christians. I recently went to a 21st birthday party for our local Youth for Christ organisation. As I said I am good firends with the guy who runs it and back when I was a Christian I was heavily involved with them. So I went along just to see old firends, and get free food.
Everyone was fine with me, until they found out I was no longer a Christian. At that point you could actually see their faces change and their opinion of me fall. One second I was the same old guy they had known for years, the next I was some scummy atheist. I spent the rest of that event being pestered with questions about why I didn't believe. It really upset me if I am honest. It made me realise though how easy it is for religion to change normally nice people into bigots. They had no idea that I wasn't ONE OF THEM until I honestly answered their questions about going to church. That one aspect however was enough for them to completely change their opinion of me and I was left feeling as though I had lost all the respect and good will I had built up with them over the years. Just because I no longer believe in Sky Daddy.
It is strange how weird beliefs, if held by a few, are viewed as odd and yet if thousands of people believe the same weird thing then it some how becomes acceptable and even normal. The question I like to ask is if everyone thought that they were Napoleon then would thinking that you were Napoleon still be considered crazy?
I actually have a number of religous friends and get on well with both the local pastor and our local Youth for Christ leader. I have helped them both out with a number of events in our area as, aside from the whole religious bit, they do a lot of good work. However we almost never talk about religion as in this area I simply can't respect them. I just don't get how people can be completely normal and rational in some aspects of their lives and yet believe so completely in the supernatural in another area.
That said I have also had unpleasant runins with moderate Christians. I recently went to a 21st birthday party for our local Youth for Christ organisation. As I said I am good firends with the guy who runs it and back when I was a Christian I was heavily involved with them. So I went along just to see old firends, and get free food.
Everyone was fine with me, until they found out I was no longer a Christian. At that point you could actually see their faces change and their opinion of me fall. One second I was the same old guy they had known for years, the next I was some scummy atheist. I spent the rest of that event being pestered with questions about why I didn't believe. It really upset me if I am honest. It made me realise though how easy it is for religion to change normally nice people into bigots. They had no idea that I wasn't ONE OF THEM until I honestly answered their questions about going to church. That one aspect however was enough for them to completely change their opinion of me and I was left feeling as though I had lost all the respect and good will I had built up with them over the years. Just because I no longer believe in Sky Daddy.
borrofburi
New Member
Indeed, that's why I lost a lot of my theist friends, they simply lost most respect for me. I admitted I was not-religious and suddenly that elevated them, they were teachers and I was an ignorant student who needed the important knowledge they had. They weren't even that bigotted, they still asked me for help on homework questions, and still invited me to BBQ, they were still polite and still consulted me on anything not-religious or not-philosophical or not-moral or not-social, so they effectively relegated me to science only, I was considered an intelligent fool who knew his science but didn't know anything about social moral philosophical or religious questions.
I've gained several more theist friends since, but it's hard to develop a relationship that's anything more than events and activities when they don't trust me with anything about their lives because I'm an evil heathen who can not have any insight (especially when sky daddy has infinite insight). Maybe I should finally join a skeptics group or something.
I've gained several more theist friends since, but it's hard to develop a relationship that's anything more than events and activities when they don't trust me with anything about their lives because I'm an evil heathen who can not have any insight (especially when sky daddy has infinite insight). Maybe I should finally join a skeptics group or something.
DeistPaladin
New Member
Personally, whenever I'm exposed to a religion (or, for that matter, any other set of beliefs), the first question that pops into my mind is "what kind of behavior can I expect if you really do believe this stuff?"
As Sam Harris has noted, as we think, so we act.
Part of the reason I focus so much on Islamo-Christianity and less on, say, Buddhism, is the inherent danger of the former belief system. This danger comes in three parts:
1. If you really see the world in terms of Jesus (Allah) vs. Satan, than you see the world in an "us vs. them" mentality. This is why fundies scream "Satanism" every time they're exposed to a set of values non consistent with their own. This worldview (literally) demonizes broadly, from heterodox Christians to New Agers to non-believers. After all, you're with Jesus so anyone who's not with you, well, that narrows it down now doesn't it?
9/11 and the Inquisition should be stark warnings that anyone who sees a neighbors as working with the devil is capable of doing anything to them.
2. If you describe "sin" as acting against the will of Jesus (Allah), than all things are permissable so long as they promote your religion. This is why it's so easy for religious adherents to commit atrocities even as moderates preach a message of love. Sin is, after all, defined not in terms of compassion but obiedience to authority. Since Church authority (or scripture) speak for God, anything they say goes.
3. The salvation message ups the stakes as high as they can go. It's not just your soul at stake but your children's. If you really believe Hell is real, what's a little torture and murder of a few hellbound heretics to save the souls of millions (especially if the saved are among your children)? After all, these heretics are going to Hell anyway. All you're doing is sending them there a little ahead of schedule and saving many other relatively innocent souls in the process. Isn't that a bargain?
They can say "no true Christian (Muslim)" all they like but there's a reason why history plays out the atrocities over and over. All it takes is the right leader to set off the powder keg.
As Sam Harris has noted, as we think, so we act.
Part of the reason I focus so much on Islamo-Christianity and less on, say, Buddhism, is the inherent danger of the former belief system. This danger comes in three parts:
1. If you really see the world in terms of Jesus (Allah) vs. Satan, than you see the world in an "us vs. them" mentality. This is why fundies scream "Satanism" every time they're exposed to a set of values non consistent with their own. This worldview (literally) demonizes broadly, from heterodox Christians to New Agers to non-believers. After all, you're with Jesus so anyone who's not with you, well, that narrows it down now doesn't it?
9/11 and the Inquisition should be stark warnings that anyone who sees a neighbors as working with the devil is capable of doing anything to them.
2. If you describe "sin" as acting against the will of Jesus (Allah), than all things are permissable so long as they promote your religion. This is why it's so easy for religious adherents to commit atrocities even as moderates preach a message of love. Sin is, after all, defined not in terms of compassion but obiedience to authority. Since Church authority (or scripture) speak for God, anything they say goes.
3. The salvation message ups the stakes as high as they can go. It's not just your soul at stake but your children's. If you really believe Hell is real, what's a little torture and murder of a few hellbound heretics to save the souls of millions (especially if the saved are among your children)? After all, these heretics are going to Hell anyway. All you're doing is sending them there a little ahead of schedule and saving many other relatively innocent souls in the process. Isn't that a bargain?
They can say "no true Christian (Muslim)" all they like but there's a reason why history plays out the atrocities over and over. All it takes is the right leader to set off the powder keg.
Is it wrong that I'm irked by statements like "God bless you" or, "God's will be done"? These kinds of comments merely validate and normalise the delusion. I sometimes even deflect these comments from good meaning friends and relatives, but it often comes off as rude. Does anybody have any good deflection for me to try out?
X
X
borrofburi
New Member
You could respond in kind with something they find offensive, like "Zeus be with you", or "may his noodly appendage touch you".xman said:
Th1sWasATriumph
New Member
xman said:
Nope!
You see similar on old building stones: "This stone was laid to the glory of God by Sir Harold Calculator Gunterstone in the year 1863."
All such things irk me. I can't think of a polite deflection though; ANY response could backfire.
"Sorry, but I don't believe in God." Nope, that means you're the devil.
"May science bless you!" Just openly combative, if awesome.
"Fuck off." Classic, but socially frowned upon.
When I worked in Vodafone, one of my colleagues said something like "God bless you" or "God be with you" and I responded with "I'd rather not, I don't follow God". There followed a very long debate, and he genuinely thought I was going to hell, of course. He couldn't respond to any of my questions and just hid behind balls about how God is testing, and we have a choice to believe (despite my insistence that the choice is as coherent as the choice between cake or death.)
Basically . . . it NEVER works.
rabbitpirate
New Member
xman said:
Personally this doesn't bother me and I generally just ignore them. The first one in particular is generally just used colloquially as something you say when someone sneezes rather than as an actual blessing. That said one thing you could try is just taking what they said and following it to its logical conclusion based upon what their religion actually teaches, for example.
They say: God Bless You
You say: But would he seeing I'm an atheist? Isn't he planning on sending me to Hell?
or
They say: God's will be done
You say: Like there is much choice in the matter, isn't everything that happens God's will according to you?
or
They say: God be with you
You say: Isn't he anyway, I thought he was omnipresent?
No idea if that would work at all, I am really just making stuff up off the top of my head. I just think people say these things without thinking them through and it might be a good way to show the flaws in their way of thinking.
As far as sneezing goes, I'm just trying to get, "gesundheit," back into the lexicon of everyday speakers. I like that it is just wishing people health, without specifying God in any direct way. It was used in toasts and such, as I understand it, "Auf Gesundheit," or some such.
rabbitpirate said:
First of all, great article. I think another great response is "If I tell you I'm an atheist, would you assault me with questions and try to save my soul? Well, I'm simply trying to save your mind from delusion." If they say the former is fine and the latter isn't, it's easy to point out the double standard. Especially since they've likely already tried to "save" you.
The reason I quoted the above passage is that I've often wondered this myself, and I think I've formulated a reasonably close answer through close observation of the religious people around me here in Mormanville, USA (aka: Utah). People tend to compartmentalize their lives. They have their home life, their work life, their friend life, each with its own standard for behavior and thoughts. Most people put their religious lives into its own little compartment, and only use it to support the reason for being a moral person outside that compartment (and sometimes not even this). Since most of the morals they have correlate with secular sources of morality, the only time when religion conflicts with non religion is when the inconsistancies in morality come up or the religion department is opened up directly.
Unfortunately, most people hold their religious compartment to be special, despite its relative unimportance. They consider it invioble and above criticism because they've been taught their entire lives that you're just suppose to just have faith and not question or criticize it. I've seen it in tons of my friends who, by anyone's standards, are a lot less conservative than I am in other matters, yet as soon as religion comes up, they're as devout as saints, while others are perfectly logical and sane by anyone's standards, and are less than devout (though still believing).
This kind of double standard is extremely obnoxious, and how prevelant it is in societies heavily dominated by religion frustrates me, as most of them just believe it because they've been indoctrinated so thoroughly, not because they think it's the truth or live by it.
And "bless you" bugs me too, especially with how bad my pollen allergies are.