Why Do Theists Want to Argue?

[godisabullet]

I am worried when we all close ourselves to debate.

I would like to point out that I'm not saying "don't debate/discuss/argue.... ever." In fact, just by starting this thread it should show that I'm actually very interested in discussion.

However, I do wonder what motivates a Theist to "argue" - discuss/debate. To clarify, its not really about why an atheist or just anyone in general would want to argue any given point. It is specifically about why Theists argue.

Why does Ray Comfort want to argue/discuss/debate with atheists? Well, we know he has an agenda/motivation. 1. He's trying to sell books and merchandise. 2. He's trying to sell the Creation product - the idea that goddidit some 6000 years ago. 3. He can't be seen to be wrong at all otherwise.... there goes god.... I'm sure there are other things that motivate him too.

Why does Nephilimfee like to present his arguments? 1. He's nuts. 2. He's nuts. 3. Well, that's what I'd like to know and is the whole point of the thread.

Repeat above for VenomFangx

Why did japhia start his thread? It should be obvious to all that he didn't learn anything from the replies and no-one else learned anything from him. But he started the thread for a reason.... what is that reason?

And ironically, why did JWW start his thread (which has already been so quickly taken apart I have to wonder .... wtf was the point)?

There is a psychology to it all I'm sure and that's what I'm interested in.

 

[lrkun]

I am worried when we all close ourselves to debate.

I would like to point out that I'm not saying "don't debate/discuss/argue.... ever." In fact, just by starting this thread it should show that I'm actually very interested in discussion.

However, I do wonder what motivates a Theist to "argue" - discuss/debate. To clarify, its not really about why an atheist or just anyone in general would want to argue any given point. It is specifically about why Theists argue.

Why does Ray Comfort want to argue/discuss/debate with atheists? Well, we know he has an agenda/motivation. 1. He's trying to sell books and merchandise. 2. He's trying to sell the Creation product - the idea that goddidit some 6000 years ago. 3. He can't be seen to be wrong at all otherwise.... there goes god.... I'm sure there are other things that motivate him too.

Why does Nephilimfee like to present his arguments? 1. He's nuts. 2. He's nuts. 3. Well, that's what I'd like to know and is the whole point of the thread.

Repeat above for VenomFangx

Why did japhia start his thread? It should be obvious to all that he didn't learn anything from the replies and no-one else learned anything from him. But he started the thread for a reason.... what is that reason?

And ironically, why did JWW start his thread (which has already been so quickly taken apart I have to wonder .... wtf was the point)?

There is a psychology to it all I'm sure and that's what I'm interested in.

Let me tell you a little story.

Once upon a time, a man went out and spoke his mind. People believed and followed him. He said all sorts of things. He made all these promises. Then he died. Now another man carries his torch. He believed in the person who died and shared his point of view.

This man voiced the same thing. A minor change here, a minor change there, and the ideas became similar to faith. This man eventually died. Another person carried the torch.

The cycle continues up to the point where the truth is finally revealed and the first man was wrong. The ideas did not reflect reality, but however for his followers they were left with no choice. They gambled it all. They gave up everything. Now, in the slim chance they change their mind, they will finally realize that it was all a lie.

Some men don't wish to admit they were wrong. Now they change and make adjustments to the first man's words. Making sure that it is still there, however, it is now watered down to the point of mud.

Did you like my story?

The point is, they can no longer turn back. Even if they know that it is a lie, they will do everything to keep it going. If and when they stop, they'll be admitting that they were wrong.

In short, they don't want to see reality. They want to believe in that drug. Escapism my friend. Magic.

-oOo-

With respect to the theists who say those sort of things, it's really simple. They want to be right.

 

[godisabullet]

Let me tell you a little story.

Once upon a time, a man went out and spoke his mind. People believed and followed him. He said all sorts of things. He made all these promises. Then he died. Now another man carries his torch. He believed in the person who died and shared his point of view.

This man voiced the same thing. A minor change here, a minor change there, and the ideas became similar to faith. This man eventually died. Another person carried the torch.

The cycle continues up to the point where the truth is finally revealed and the first man was wrong. The ideas did not reflect reality, but however for his followers they were left with no choice. They gambled it all. They gave up everything. Now, in the slim chance they change their mind, they will finally realize that it was all a lie.

Some men don't wish to admit they were wrong. Now they change and make adjustments to the first man's words. Making sure that it is still there, however, it is now watered down to the point of mud.

Did you like my story?

The point is. When the truth is out. Some don't ever wish to admit that the thing in which they gave up everything was a lie. Sometimes, for the purpose of survival, they will destroy the truth. And they will use the two levers in which a man can be forced to move. 1. Interest and 2. fear.

So really, it often is wilful delusion?

That's really very interesting. They know that they're believing in something that has no basis in fact but they just won't let go. It's too much for them to admit that their ideas are flawed. Not only that, they also feel compelled to further justify and perpetuate their beliefs through argument/discussion/debate.


And what about this..... "If I can convert just one person, it will validate my beliefs - even if only for myself."

 

[lrkun]

Let me tell you a little story.

Once upon a time, a man went out and spoke his mind. People believed and followed him. He said all sorts of things. He made all these promises. Then he died. Now another man carries his torch. He believed in the person who died and shared his point of view.

This man voiced the same thing. A minor change here, a minor change there, and the ideas became similar to faith. This man eventually died. Another person carried the torch.

The cycle continues up to the point where the truth is finally revealed and the first man was wrong. The ideas did not reflect reality, but however for his followers they were left with no choice. They gambled it all. They gave up everything. Now, in the slim chance they change their mind, they will finally realize that it was all a lie.

Some men don't wish to admit they were wrong. Now they change and make adjustments to the first man's words. Making sure that it is still there, however, it is now watered down to the point of mud.

Did you like my story?

The point is. When the truth is out. Some don't ever wish to admit that the thing in which they gave up everything was a lie. Sometimes, for the purpose of survival, they will destroy the truth. And they will use the two levers in which a man can be forced to move. 1. Interest and 2. fear.

So really, it often is wilful delusion?

That's really very interesting. They know that they're believing in something that has no basis in fact but they just won't let go. It's too much for them to admit that their ideas are flawed. Not only that, they also feel compelled to further justify and perpetuate their beliefs through argument/discussion/debate.


And what about this..... "If I can convert just one person, it will validate my beliefs - even if only for myself."

You got it. That's all there is to it. The problem is with respect to the new generation. Kids, babies, and the like don't know better. They are the real victiims in all these. hehe.

 

[godisabullet]

:idea: :idea: :idea:



Cooool! Learning is fun!

Thanks Irkun

 

[Andiferous]

The point is, they can no longer turn back. Even if they know that it is a lie, they will do everything to keep it going. If and when they stop, they'll be admitting that they were wrong.

This sounds rather like atheist romance.

Why do people communicate and discuss and debate on forums? I've a hard time believing they do so only to spread propaganda. There are those who recruit on the Internet, but that number is not huge. Some just come to have a nice conversation. How do you know? Talk with people, silly. I was awfully defensive in the beginning and so were all of you.

Let go of those preconceptions, then. Those lies you hang onto.

Judge when necessary.

Judge too soon, I'll call you a booger. Fair trade.

 

[lrkun]

The point is, they can no longer turn back. Even if they know that it is a lie, they will do everything to keep it going. If and when they stop, they'll be admitting that they were wrong.

This sounds rather like atheist romance.

Why do people communicate and discuss and debate on forums? I've a hard time believing they do so only to spread propaganda. There are those who recruit on the Internet, but that number is not huge. Some just come to have a nice conversation. How do you know? Talk with people, silly. I was awfully defensive in the beginning and so were all of you.

Let go of those preconceptions, then. Those lies you hang onto.

Judge when necessary.

Judge too soon, I'll call you a booger. Fair trade.

It's one explanation. An alternative is for power. Religion and faith is a business after all. But hey, once you've been exposed to the facts. It's really difficult to close your eyes. Science is a very convincing body of knowledge. I mean, we can test it again and again. It produces results. It does not rely on false hopes. It makes no promises and even if it does, it delivers.

Religion on the other hand does not. Sure it will make you feel good. You will feel you belong. Others will share your delusion, however, when push comes to shove, science produced the necessities.

With respect to science you can always challenge it. It will always welcome you. You don't even have to have faith in it. You don't have to believe in it. You have the liberty, the choice, to question it. It mandates that you improve it as time passes.

In contrast with religion, the latter is stagnant. It relies on principles of the ancient past.

Yes, I am a romantic. I seriously want magic to exist. I really want to see a miracle. I want to believe that faith heals and saves people, but experience and experimentation says otherwise. I challenge these experiments of mine in a daily basis. The results are the same. Trial and error, again and again. What can I say? Do I lie and say, let's believe and be happy. Faith, hope, and love?

I can no longer do that. Sometimes I'd cling to the fallacies of delusions, but knowing that I will always return to reason. Medicine vs. herbal medicine? No contest. Prayer vs. money? No contest. Diligence vs. rituals? No contest.

However, I don't wish to convert people. I don't wish to impose my ideas. I rely on one thing, that they in their own reason will likewise try and experiment. Trial and error.

Hehehe.

You have to forgive me, I love to write. Sometimes, my point is weathered by words and phrases which in themselves show my way of thinking. >.<;

In defense of delusions, I do enjoy anime. And I welcome all theists to test science. That is the beauty of it. It is always open to challenges. Therefore, in the end, we'll always be debating theists.

 

[Andiferous]

You've also passionately argued for me to close my eyes in an effort to open them dearie.

I'm sorry, you're a booger here.

 

[lrkun]

You've also passionately argued for me to close my eyes in an effort to open them dearie.

I'm sorry, you're a booger here.

I admit I am biased with respect to science. However, I don't wish for you to close your eyes. Try faith, experiment on their belief systems. If it works for you and you find it better than science and reason, why not. It's a choice-Intentional, conscious, and deliberate. However, when the time comes and that your experimentation produces results, only you can interpret it and make the decision.

Hell, we have a lifetime to do so.

 

[Andiferous]

I agree with that... a little bit more.

 

[Mapp]

Why theists argue is a complex question.

In the first part, all successful religions are memes, and memes, like genes must propagate. This is why the religions that have survived for thousands of years have either been tied to ethnic identity, such as Shinto or Judaism, or have built in clauses demanding that the followers proselytize, like Islam and Christianity. Proselytizing religions train people to argue over their religion, either through persuasion or violence. This is why evangelical churches in particular tend to have scripts that they want people to follow (see for instance, Ray Comfort's "so you believe you're a good person" spiel). So arguing is an essential duty of the faith. Nondenominational churches often hammer this into their parishoners. They use guilt trips to convince people that if they're not engaged full-time in spreading the gospel to complete strangers, even in socially awkward situations, then they must be secretly ashamed of their faith. It's a cruel trap that a lot of protestant Christians especially find themselves in.

Because religion is such a powerful meme, it develops a substructure of mutually reinforcing ideas. A person's identity, community, sense of self-worth, sense of morality all get tied to the over-arching idea. Thus, an attack on religion is perceived as an attack on them, and demands a response. When someone this tied into the religion meets someone who does not believe, it threatens the entire support structure of the person's life. Wait, they have morals, friends, social interaction and self worth without the super-structure? Something is wrong! This cognitive dissonance brings a person into conflict with the non-believer, usually in an defensive, accusatory fashion. See for instance, "Well, you atheists believe in nothing!" This is not a disingenuous statement for someone who bases their view of reality and philosophy on religion.

Finally there's the dishonest charlatans that we know as apologists. Apologists have accepted internally that the stories in their holy books are ridiculous, and they tend not to argue from that angle. Apologists are similarly not interested in converting people, and thus rarely resort to arguments of faith like the people above do. Professional apologists aren't interested in bringing people into the fold, they're interested in bolstering the sheep by winning perceived victories over non-believers. Hence people like Matt Slick, who construct fallacious arguments based on rhetorical slight-of-hand in the hopes of catching someone off guard. Other theists, who hear these frauds preach to the choir, are often convinced that these arguments are unassailable, and are looking for a chance to unleash them on unsuspecting atheists, agnostics, and sometimes co-religionists so that they to can crow their opponents. In other words, it's trading being holy for being holier than thou.

I think that about covers it.

 

[blood_pardon]

I don't think it's just Theists, I think humans generally quite like to argue. Whether its about which football team is the best or whether or not there is a God. I don't think it's something that is unique to Theists. Whenever someone holds a strong enough view about something they will take pleasure in arguing in defence of it. That's why they do it.

^
^
^
^
What he said.

There is also this:

I admit I am biased with respect to science. However, I don't wish for you to close your eyes. Try faith, experiment on their belief systems. If it works for you and you find it better than science and reason, why not. It's a choice-Intentional, conscious, and deliberate. However, when the time comes and that your experimentation produces results, only you can interpret it and make the decision.

Hell, we have a lifetime to do so.

I appreciate this post bro (or sis?tree?) but how long is a lifetime really?

Psalm 39:4-6

4 "Show me, O LORD, my life's end
and the number of my days;
let me know how fleeting is my life.

5 You have made my days a mere handbreadth;
the span of my years is as nothing before you.
Each man's life is but a breath.
Selah

6 Man is a mere phantom as he goes to and fro:
He bustles about, but only in vain;
he heaps up wealth, not knowing who will get it.

 

[Andiferous]

Finally there's the dishonest charlatans that we know as apologists. Apologists have accepted internally that the stories in their holy books are ridiculous, and they tend not to argue from that angle. Apologists are similarly not interested in converting people, and thus rarely resort to arguments of faith like the people above do. Professional apologists aren't interested in bringing people into the fold, they're interested in bolstering the sheep by winning perceived victories over non-believers. Hence people like Matt Slick, who construct fallacious arguments based on rhetorical slight-of-hand in the hopes of catching someone off guard. Other theists, who hear these frauds preach to the choir, are often convinced that these arguments are unassailable, and are looking for a chance to unleash them on unsuspecting atheists, agnostics, and sometimes co-religionists so that they to can crow their opponents. In other words, it's trading being holy for being holier than thou.

I think that about covers it.

I don't exactly agree but I reserve the Booger title for Lrkun, as Lrkun came first.

 

[godisabullet]

I don't think it's just Theists, I think humans generally quite like to argue. Whether its about which football team is the best or whether or not there is a God. I don't think it's something that is unique to Theists. Whenever someone holds a strong enough view about something they will take pleasure in arguing in defence of it. That's why they do it.

^
^
^
^
What he said.

There is also this:

I admit I am biased with respect to science. However, I don't wish for you to close your eyes. Try faith, experiment on their belief systems. If it works for you and you find it better than science and reason, why not. It's a choice-Intentional, conscious, and deliberate. However, when the time comes and that your experimentation produces results, only you can interpret it and make the decision.

Hell, we have a lifetime to do so.

I appreciate this post bro (or sis?tree?) but how long is a lifetime really?

Psalm 39:4-6

4 "Show me, O LORD, my life's end
and the number of my days;
let me know how fleeting is my life.

5 You have made my days a mere handbreadth;
the span of my years is as nothing before you.
Each man's life is but a breath.
Selah

6 Man is a mere phantom as he goes to and fro:
He bustles about, but only in vain;
he heaps up wealth, not knowing who will get it.

Please keep your fantasies out of this thread.

You are a troll.

 

[Andiferous]

And I am less so?

 

[blood_pardon]

How am I a troll?

 

[lrkun]

Psalm 39:4-6

4 "Show me, O LORD, my life's end
and the number of my days;
let me know how fleeting is my life.

5 You have made my days a mere handbreadth;
the span of my years is as nothing before you.
Each man's life is but a breath.
Selah

6 Man is a mere phantom as he goes to and fro:
He bustles about, but only in vain;
he heaps up wealth, not knowing who will get it.

Hehe, I'm not afraid of what lies when I die. Death is natural in nature. I don't mind. I just know I'll be a part of the cosmos. My body will decay, but life moves on. My corpse will be of use to nature as well as everything else. In turn I didn't really die, I changed. Death is but change from life.

Even if no one remembers who I am, it's okay. My ego is not that big that I'd hope everyone to remember me.

Besides, it's fun knowing what is really true. Your holy book's story is nothing to me. It has no power over me. I don't need a special sky daddy to rule my life. Besides, if he exists, he owes me a lot of things.

Here that God! You owe me!

Anyway, I respect your post.

 

[TheFlyingBastard]

There is also this:
http://unitedchristianbikers.com/Hell.jpg

Theists argue for the sole purpose of fear-mongering?

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Because it's fun?

That seems like the final answer. Ultimately, you must get some sort of enjoyment out of it, or you're wasting your time.

 

[Andiferous]

Because it's fun?

That seems like the final answer. Ultimately, you must get some sort of enjoyment out of it, or you're wasting your time.

Rather universal really.