What if God defies Logic, Reasoning & the Laws of Universe?

[lrkun]

Re: What if God defies Logic, Reasoning & the Laws of Univer

Chance as in... since from when I posted the original post, I didn't see anyway to prove or disprove this "god who defies logic, reasoning, & the laws of the universe", I thought that that means that there is a chance?:

No, it does not mean there is a chance, it only means that it is not known. The reason why you are having a hard time disproving it is because you have no grounds for your basis of it.

Imagine a dog which is flying on top of your head. You can imagine it at the moment, because you read this, but how can you prove that such a dog exists? Chance? Because it defies logic, reason, and the laws of the universe?

That is the situation. Purely hypothetical, with made up laws, and based on assumpsion without ground to stand on.

 

[phantomkirby]

Re: What if God defies Logic, Reasoning & the Laws of Univer

If there is a limit of any kind to this entity's power, then it isn't omnipotent. That's precisely why omnipotence is self-refuting. In any event, I can build a pile of bricks that I can't lift, so there is no logical barrier to doing so. Indeed, given access to the right technology, I could create a rock that I couldn't lift. This is a trivial action, so again there is no logical barrier to doing so. So what you are actually doing is attempting to redefine 'omnipotence' to mean 'a lot of power', at which point, where do you draw the line between a lot of power and true omnipotence?

"C. S. Lewis argues that when talking about omnipotence, referencing "a rock so heavy that God cannot lift it" is nonsense just as much as referencing "a square circle." So asking "Can God create a rock so heavy that even he cannot lift it?" is just as much nonsense as asking "Can God draw a square circle?" Therefore the question (and therefore the perceived paradox) is meaningless"

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence_paradox

Some people's definition of omipotence is different than that though. There are some people who say that omnipotence isn't like that. You can go to the link for the definitions.

1. A deity is able to do anything that is logically possible for it to do.
2. A deity is able to do anything that it chooses to do.
3. A deity is able to do anything that is in accord with its own nature (thus, for instance, if it is a logical consequence of a deity's nature that what it speaks is truth, then it is not able to lie).
4. Hold that it is part of a deity's nature to be consistent and that it would be inconsistent for said deity to go against its own laws unless there was a reason to do so.
5. A deity is able to do anything that corresponds with its omniscience and therefore with its worldplan.
6. A deity is able to do absolutely anything, even the logically impossible, i.e., pure agency.

From the first definition, the rock thing is illogical right? So god is still omnipotent in that sense right?

 

[lrkun]

Re: What if God defies Logic, Reasoning & the Laws of Univer

From the first definition, the rock thing is illogical right? So god is still omnipotent in that sense right?

Therefore the question (and therefore the perceived paradox) is meaningless"

I'm beginning to like C.S. Lewis.

 

[phantomkirby]

Re: What if God defies Logic, Reasoning & the Laws of Univer

Chance as in... since from when I posted the original post, I didn't see anyway to prove or disprove this "god who defies logic, reasoning, & the laws of the universe", I thought that that means that there is a chance?:

No, it does not mean there is a chance, it only means that it is not known. The reason why you are having a hard time disproving it is because you have no grounds for your basis of it.

Imagine a dog which is flying on top of your head. You can imagine it at the moment, because you read this, but how can you prove that such a dog exists? Chance? Because it defies logic, reason, and the laws of the universe?

That is the situation. Purely hypothetical, with made up laws, and based on assumpsion without ground to stand on.

Yes I agree that it's irrational to think about that, which is why I believe that there is no reason for me to believe in the god I was talking about, especially when hackenslash explained about logical absolutes. However that doesn't mean that there is nothing to disprove (sorry that there is a lack of a better word) for that god, or that dog, and that is one of the fundamental reasons as to why some people believe in a deity.

 

[lrkun]

Re: What if God defies Logic, Reasoning & the Laws of Univer

Yes I agree that it's irrational to think about that, which is why I believe that there is no reason for me to believe in the god I was talking about, especially when hackenslash explained about logical absolutes. However that doesn't mean that there is nothing to disprove (sorry that there is a lack of a better word) for that god, or that dog, and that is one of the fundamental reasons as to why some people believe in a deity.

Within the bounds of the imagination, anything is possible. Whether it reflects reality is another story.

 

[TheFlyingBastard]

Re: What if God defies Logic, Reasoning & the Laws of Univer

If God defied all logic, reasoning and laws, you would have no way to determine whether or not He exists, let alone what his properties are.

 

[lrkun]

Re: What if God defies Logic, Reasoning & the Laws of Univer

If God defied all logic, reasoning and laws, you would have no way to determine whether or not He exists, let alone what his properties are.

That's the mystery of faith. God is not supposed to be understood by humans. At least that is the view which is accepted by believers.

 

[TheFlyingBastard]

Re: What if God defies Logic, Reasoning & the Laws of Univer

If God defied all logic, reasoning and laws, you would have no way to determine whether or not He exists, let alone what his properties are.

That's the mystery of faith. God is not supposed to be understood by humans. At least that is the view which is accepted by believers.

Even faith in the biblical sense needs something to go by, as it depends on observation. A God outside of logic, reason and law is useless as a claim, even with faith.

 

[Deleted member 619]

Re: What if God defies Logic, Reasoning & the Laws of Univer

"C. S. Lewis argues that when talking about omnipotence, referencing "a rock so heavy that God cannot lift it" is nonsense just as much as referencing "a square circle." So asking "Can God create a rock so heavy that even he cannot lift it?" is just as much nonsense as asking "Can God draw a square circle?" Therefore the question (and therefore the perceived paradox) is meaningless"

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence_paradox

Some people's definition of omipotence is different than that though. There are some people who say that omnipotence isn't like that. You can go to the link for the definitions.

1. A deity is able to do anything that is logically possible for it to do.
2. A deity is able to do anything that it chooses to do.
3. A deity is able to do anything that is in accord with its own nature (thus, for instance, if it is a logical consequence of a deity's nature that what it speaks is truth, then it is not able to lie).
4. Hold that it is part of a deity's nature to be consistent and that it would be inconsistent for said deity to go against its own laws unless there was a reason to do so.
5. A deity is able to do anything that corresponds with its omniscience and therefore with its worldplan.
6. A deity is able to do absolutely anything, even the logically impossible, i.e., pure agency.

From the first definition, the rock thing is illogical right? So god is still omnipotent in that sense right?

Well, those people are welcome to redefine words to their hearts' content, if they so wish. All that will do is make them wrong. ANY limitation refutes omnipotence. Omnipotence is not possible.

As for Lewis, he said a lot of things, and very little that I actually agree with. He did at least give some thought to some of the utter drivel he believed, which is more than can be said for most, who simply accept what they are told by others equally credulous.

And finally, as already expained, the rock thing isn't illogical until you attempt to factor in omnipotence. It is, therefore, the omnipotence that is illogical, not the rock thing.

 

[lrkun]

Re: What if God defies Logic, Reasoning & the Laws of Univer

Even faith in the biblical sense needs something to go by, as it depends on observation. A God outside of logic, reason and law is useless as a claim, even with faith.

It is useless. But that's god. One and three at the same time. Walking on water, resurection, talking snakes, etc. etc. It is outside of logic and reason. Therefore it requires faith.

 

[TheFearmonger]

Re: What if God defies Logic, Reasoning & the Laws of Univer

^ Then he's illogical, unreasonable, and unlawful. Next question?

 

[TheFlyingBastard]

Re: What if God defies Logic, Reasoning & the Laws of Univer

Even faith in the biblical sense needs something to go by, as it depends on observation. A God outside of logic, reason and law is useless as a claim, even with faith.

It is useless. But that's god. One and three at the same time. Walking on water, resurection, talking snakes, etc. etc. It is outside of logic and reason. Therefore it requires faith.

Again, you're saying faith. But even religious people claim that their faith is based on something - anything.
It could be a personal experience - that would for them logically lead to God. "It was raining really hard, and I had to go to work on my bike, and when I prayed to God if he could please make it stop raining, it did."
That's a logical reason - horribly fallacious as it may be - but if this God does not abide by logic, such arguments are invalid because they make use of logic.

Someone claiming Jesus is the son of God because he walked on water is also a logical statement. But if God does not adhere to logic, that faith is not applicable to that God because it makes use of a tool the God in question is not subject to.

 

[lrkun]

Re: What if God defies Logic, Reasoning & the Laws of Univer

Again, you're saying faith. But even religious people claim that their faith is based on something - anything.
It could be a personal experience - that would for them logically lead to God. "It was raining really hard, and I had to go to work on my bike, and when I prayed to God if he could please make it stop raining, it did."
That's a logical reason - horribly fallacious as it may be - but if this God does not abide by logic, such arguments are invalid because they make use of logic.

Someone claiming Jesus is the son of God because he walked on water is also a logical statement. But if God does not adhere to logic, that faith is not applicable to that God because it makes use of a tool the God in question is not subject to.

The statement is logical with respect to form. However it does not reflect reality. Walking on water is a miracle.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theodore_drange/miracles.html

The exception

 

[TheFlyingBastard]

Re: What if God defies Logic, Reasoning & the Laws of Univer

The statement is logical with respect to form. However it does not reflect reality. Walking on water is a miracle.

My point exactly. If there is ANY form of logic within that faith, it's not applicable to a god that doesn't adhere to it.

 

[lrkun]

Re: What if God defies Logic, Reasoning & the Laws of Univer

The statement is logical with respect to form. However it does not reflect reality. Walking on water is a miracle.

My point exactly. If there is ANY form of logic within that faith, it's not applicable to a god that doesn't adhere to it.

Therefore faith is required. ^-^

It is applicable to the god of the christian faith, because they assume it to be true. In their minds, said god is beyond logic and reason.

 

[Xulld]

Re: What if God defies Logic, Reasoning & the Laws of Univer

It all goes to the root of what is knowledge.
A disagreement makes the difference between theism, deism, and atheism.
Without a way to acquire knowledge of God, religion and even belief become meaningless.

Theists must allow for non-rigorous means for the acquisition of knowledge, it is requisite for the justification of their beliefs if the individual is sufficiently intelligent and honest that is . . .

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Re: What if God defies Logic, Reasoning & the Laws of Univer

That's the mystery of faith. God is not supposed to be understood by humans. At least that is the view which is accepted by believers.

That's what they sometimes say but then they claim that God wants you to do this and He wants that, etc... It's clear that they believe that they understand Him and only fall back on the claim that He cannot be understood when you point out how illogical their claims of Him are...

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Re: What if God defies Logic, Reasoning & the Laws of Univer

I've got a better question: What if you defy logic, reasoning & the laws of universe?

 

[borrofburi]

Re: What if God defies Logic, Reasoning & the Laws of Univer

God cannot do what is logically impossible

I maintain that he can, though I'm aware that is a rather unpopular stance to take.

My justification is that: what is to say that god cannot do what is logically impossible? Logic. So basically, you're saying that according to logic, god cannot violate logic; this is tautological and meaningless. If god can violate logic, then logic has no bearing on god anymore.

 

[Nautyskin]

Re: What if God defies Logic, Reasoning & the Laws of Univer

Is magic real?