What does LoR think about Norman Finkelstein?

[Don-Sama]

So what does LoR think about Norman Finkelstein? he seems very radical to me, but he does bring some good points. I just learned about him 1 hour ago or so and am now watching some material of him.

what I have seen so far is,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7tupJRSi7M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDe65-nF3FQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkOrc1zySmQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLB8DfhnJD0


~Don

 

[JustBusiness17]

I saw the first clip via one of the members in the online video section. I watched the second clip but don't have time for the last two... Finkelstein is a tough person to comment on because no matter what position you take on him, you could easily end up defending your statements. The very reason for this that he discussing controvercial topics and expressing support for extreme measures. Is he right? Maybe... If people support the Israeli state, no matter what, they are going to vehemently oppose his views. The same could be said about pacifists. Based on those two conditions alone, he's not going to recieve a lot of support.

For me, I can't help but think of a kid fucking with a hornets nest. I'll leave it at that.

 

[Demojen]

I've listened to his speeches...
You could refute many of his statements, but his overall attitude appears to be a smear campaign.

This is particularly indicative in his position on the topic of "respect". He respects those who want to live and are willing to "walk on their knees". He respects those who are willing to die "standing". He then disrespects people less then four minutes later because they're willing to "walk on their knees".

He claims Hitler didn't want war.
Hitler wanted to kill every jew. Sure he didn't want to meet resistance. This man is mincing words to justify political views that favor "the survivors" no matter the cost or position that they've taken in war.

I don't respect many of his views.
He has no spine.

Like a car salesman who attempts to cover his bases with bullshit, all it takes to engage Normal Finkelstein is a firm grasp on the political concepts he's trying to force feed you.

...and to Finkelstein I say, "Who cares about respect?"

PS: I am against the establishment of an Israeli state. Any state that exists as a direct result of religious propaganda should be resisted itself.

 

[Master_Ghost_Knight]

It is given that he presents a version of the sory that is rarely heard. His speach is sometimes internally inconsistent but that isn't necessarily because his point his unfounded, on the other hand he transpires to be well informed about the issues and makes good points.

The fact is that region is a gigantic cluster fuck and I can't pretend that I know to much about the political circumstances to be able to have an informed opinion about it.

 

[JustBusiness17]

I've listened to his speeches...
You could refute many of his statements, but his overall attitude appears to be a smear campaign.

This is particularly indicative in his position on the topic of "respect". He respects those who want to live and are willing to "walk on their knees". He respects those who are willing to die "standing". He then disrespects people less then four minutes later because they're willing to "walk on their knees".

He claims Hitler didn't want war.
Hitler wanted to kill every jew. Sure he didn't want to meet resistance. This man is mincing words to justify political views that favor "the survivors" no matter the cost or position that they've taken in war.

I don't respect many of his views.
He has no spine.

Like a car salesman who attempts to cover his bases with bullshit, all it takes to engage Normal Finkelstein is a firm grasp on the political concepts he's trying to force feed you.

...and to Finkelstein I say, "Who cares about respect?"

PS: I am against the establishment of an Israeli state. Any state that exists as a direct result of religious propaganda should be resisted itself.

Your entire post is void of anything that even remotely addressed Finkelstein's position. To demonstrate, here is what your post would look like if I removed the claims, insults, attempts to establish yourself as an authority figure, issues with delivery, and problems with analogies used:
If I was going to read between the lines, I would say that his message upsets you but you really don't know how to deal with it. Quit posturing and refute the core of his message. What's the point of poking the fluff?

 

[Demojen]

Why would I refute things I don't disagree with?
I refute the presentation(the fluff), because as you felt inclined to post, that's the problem.

If I yell at you the same message I can get across to you in a collected manner, you'll receive it better? How about if I add expletives and use "respect" and "God" in my rant? I don't disagree with everything he says.

I don't respect him. He's a sales man selling politics.

 

[JustBusiness17]

Why would I refute things I don't disagree with?
I refute the presentation(the fluff), because as you felt inclined to post, that's the problem.

If I yell at you the same message I can get across to you in a collected manner, you'll receive it better? How about if I add expletives and use "respect" and "God" in my rant? I don't disagree with everything he says.

I don't respect him. He's a sales man selling politics.

If thats the case, this debate is so ideologically driven that I don't blame one of the 6._Billion people on this earth taking the argument and putting it into a context that people will respond to. I don't disagree that he is engaging in a smear campaign, but when you look at the tactics (supported by media power) going in the other direction, I don't think its completely unjustified. I hate to use biblical references because I don't like to encourage people, but this is a David and Goliath type senario. If I type "Fox Israel" into the youtube search bar, I get over 4000 hits returned. How many of those do you think are "fair and balanced"?

Two wrongs don't make a right, but if you break it down, all he's really doing is exagerating...

 

[Demojen]

Politics is some sort of monster. You have to sit beside yourself sometimes just to be acknowledged.
I have to wonder if given the opportunity to effect change directly with all of this talk, whether or not he'd continue to exaggerate or choose a more constructive approach.

Though this is an address to a world that's sleeping at the wheel. Maybe a slap in the face would be good for it.

 

[JustBusiness17]

Politics is some sort of monster. You have to sit beside yourself sometimes just to be acknowledged.
I have to wonder if given the opportunity to effect change directly with all of this talk, whether or not he'd continue to exaggerate or choose a more constructive approach.

Though this is an address to a world that's sleeping at the wheel. Maybe a slap in the face would be good for it.

I know you disagreed with it in your first post, but if you don't mind, I'd like to use Finkelstein's 'Hitler analogy' to put this in perspective. If he knew of an easier way of achieving his goals, he would use it... He's taking the (perceived) path of least resistance :arrow:

 

[Case]

Your entire post is void of anything that even remotely addressed Finkelstein's position. To demonstrate, here is what your post would look like if I removed the claims, insults, attempts to establish yourself as an authority figure, issues with delivery, and problems with analogies used:
If I was going to read between the lines, I would say that his message upsets you but you really don't know how to deal with it. Quit posturing and refute the core of his message. What's the point of poking the fluff?

Hahaha, I was preparing to do the exact same thing when I read Demo's post, but you beat me to it.

See, ever since that statistics course I took I've been converted to, let's call it... variancism. There are many ways of getting the point across, and each has their pros and cons. We have Chomsky (among others) for the laid back, reasonable and sometimes cynical comments on events in politics and society, but his work is not (as) widely known (as I'd like it to be), even though he's published dozens of books.
This Norman guy takes a different approach, and he makes valid points. The thing is that you could easily misinterpret what he's actually saying. The Hitler thing, I think, was not intended to make Hitler seem less belligerent or fanatic than he was, but instead compare the actions of USrael to those of the Nazis, as evidenced by his following comparison of the Lebanese to the French during WW2.

I don't think it's a matter of liking or not liking the guy, it's about the arguments he puts forth. I think he's got a very valid reason for speaking out against USrael's actions.

 

[JustBusiness17]

@Case, I quite agree and could support your post, but I think it stands well enough on its own.

I was rather impressed by your use of the word "USrael" though. It seemed rather clever and self explanatory. After googling it, I found http://www.USrael.com which features Alex Jones' InfoWars as a media outlet... I didn't really look past the top of the list of media outlets beyond a quick scan for other red flags...

I still like the term "USrael", but not when it's associated with that website...

 

[Don-Sama]

Ohh it seemed I caused a little debate how splendid!

So after watching it he does have some good points.

I've listened to his speeches...
You could refute many of his statements

Please do.

Like a car salesman who attempts to cover his bases with bullshit, all it takes to engage Normal Finkelstein is a firm grasp on the political concepts he's trying to force feed you.

...and to Finkelstein I say, "Who cares about respect?"

PS: I am against the establishment of an Israeli state. Any state that exists as a direct result of religious propaganda should be resisted itself.

I as well don't like way he sells his statements to the public, but it works. whether that's bad or good I dunno.. It seems like a cheap trick that might provoke hatred towards USrael, they deserve tbh.

I also don't care for respect.. I do not attach any value to it, nor do I have much self respect . but alas many people do attach much value to it, hence why he gets so much attention, instead of Chompsky.

Case, could you recommend one chompsky book?

 

[JustBusiness17]

I also don't care for respect.. I do not attach any value to it, nor do I have much self respect . but alas many people do attach much value to it, hence why he gets so much attention, instead of Chompsky.

If you polled the entire human population regarding awareness of Noam Chompsky and Norman Finklestein, I would bet everything I own and my entire future that Chompsky is more well known than Finklestein...

Case, could you recommend one chompsky book?

I inherited a bunch of Chompsky books and haven't read any yet so I wouldn't mind a recommendation either. Won't be able to read it until summer, but it never hurts to plan ahead...

 

[Don-Sama]

If you polled the entire human population regarding awareness of Noam Chompsky and Norman Finklestein, I would bet everything I own and my entire future that Chompsky is more well known than Finklestein...

Well we can't argue about that, but keep in mind his messages are easier to understand then chompsky's, since his views are basically that Israel is bad. I also thing he might be very very well known in the shadowed Muslim world, but ofcourse that is mere speculation.

 

[Case]

@Case, I quite agree and could support your post, but I think it stands well enough on its own.

I was rather impressed by your use of the word "USrael" though. It seemed rather clever and self explanatory. After googling it, I found http://www.USrael.com which features Alex Jones' InfoWars as a media outlet... I didn't really look past the top of the list of media outlets beyond a quick scan for other red flags...

I still like the term "USrael", but not when it's associated with that website...

Ouch, that's what I get for not paying attention to the bullshit press. Thought it up because I didn't want to write "The United States and Israel" all the time... but I guess it's not that hard to come up with, evidently, hahaha. In a similar vein, a long time ago I tried to find a word for the pharmaceutical industry's practice to try to tell people what drugs they need and decided to call this 'pharmasuitable marketing'. Turns out back then there were 67 hits on google for 'pharmasuitables'. Not much, but still... besides, they were all positive ("We don't sell pharmaceuticals, we sell... pharmasuitables!", oh the irony). It's hard to come up with truly new ideas these days.

 

[Case]

Case, could you recommend one chompsky book?

I inherited a bunch of Chompsky books and haven't read any yet so I wouldn't mind a recommendation either. Won't be able to read it until summer, but it never hurts to plan ahead...

I haven't read too many of his works, either, but I recommend reading 'Failed States - The Abuse of Power and the Assault on Democracy' (2007). Fairly recent, sums up the hypocrisy of the US gov's policies and actions pretty well and is meticulously backed up with evidence. For less verbosity, you can read 'Power and Terror' (2003; on Sep 11, role and image of the US, Palestine) or 'What we say goes' (2006/07; on Iran, NK, Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan, China, Latin America), those are basically just transcripts of interviews with Chomsky.

 

[Demojen]

The more I read on this guy, the more I like him.
Now if only he had a big stick.