What does Anti-theism mean to you?

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

I think you're really going to have to qualify that. I know of no anti-theist who has come out in favor of prohibiting theism. Unless you have some specific example in mind, I'm tempted to think that you are imagining this.

I beg to differ-
http://forums.leagueofreason.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3812

 

[Yfelsung]

Antitheism to me is simply the acceptance that theism, the belief in a god or the supernatural, is effectively a learned psychosis.

We should as a society work to eliminate this psychosis through proper education and, if necessary, medication.

Believing fantasy is reality is unhealthy, plain as that.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

Antitheism to me is simply the acceptance that theism, the belief in a god or the supernatural, is effectively a learned psychosis.

We should as a society work to eliminate this psychosis through proper education and, if necessary, medication.

Believing fantasy is reality is unhealthy, plain as that.

Good to know that religion has something to do with knowledge and it's application.

/sarcasm :|

Religion has little-to-no value in a country's advancement and application of scientific methods. People do.
For example - I am an EOD. I am also a Wiccan.
Does the fact that I am Wiccan change my approach to disarming a definitely-lethal device that could take out a city block? No.
Am I begging the gods as I walk up to it that I come out alive? Yes.

Religion doesn't change the technology - just our mindset about it. I still use the same clippers. I still wear the same suit. I'm still going to end up being either going home in a month or just a crater in the ground...

But it's good to know that you think that I'm psychotic. xD

 

[Yfelsung]

Antitheism to me is simply the acceptance that theism, the belief in a god or the supernatural, is effectively a learned psychosis.

We should as a society work to eliminate this psychosis through proper education and, if necessary, medication.

Believing fantasy is reality is unhealthy, plain as that.

Good to know that religion has something to do with knowledge and it's application.

/sarcasm :|

Religion has little-to-no value in a country's advancement and application of scientific methods. People do.
For example - I am an EOD. I am also a Wiccan.
Does the fact that I am Wiccan change my approach to disarming a definitely-lethal device that could take out a city block? No.
Am I begging the gods as I walk up to it that I come out alive? Yes.

Religion doesn't change the technology - just our mindset about it. I still use the same clippers. I still wear the same suit. I'm still going to end up being either going home in a month or just a crater in the ground...

But it's good to know that you think that I'm psychotic. xD

You believe in that which has no evidence. This is a "loss of touch with reality" which is a common description of a psychosis. *Shrugs*. I call it like I see it.

Doesn't matter what you name your fairies, they're still fairies.

 

[lrkun]

I recommend attacking the idea not the person. ^,..^

 

[Andiferous]

Good to know that religion has something to do with knowledge and it's application.

/sarcasm :|

Religion has little-to-no value in a country's advancement and application of scientific methods. People do.
For example - I am an EOD. I am also a Wiccan.
Does the fact that I am Wiccan change my approach to disarming a definitely-lethal device that could take out a city block? No.
Am I begging the gods as I walk up to it that I come out alive? Yes.

Religion doesn't change the technology - just our mindset about it. I still use the same clippers. I still wear the same suit. I'm still going to end up being either going home in a month or just a crater in the ground...

But it's good to know that you think that I'm psychotic. xD

If it helps, I love psychotic people.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

If it helps, I love psychotic people.

I love you too, Andi.
xD

But I digress- this psychotic person is out there ensuring that people don't get OMGWTFBBQ'd by disarming various explosives and ordinance both contrived by happenstance or rigged for cruel intentions with the outcomes being Initial Success or Epic Failure.
You're very welcome.

 

[Yfelsung]

If it helps, I love psychotic people.

I love you too, Andi.
xD

But I digress- this psychotic person is out there ensuring that people don't get OMGWTFBBQ'd by disarming various explosives and ordinance both contrived by happenstance or rigged for cruel intentions with the outcomes being Initial Success or Epic Failure.
You're very welcome.

Nothing says psychotics can't be useful.

Just because someone with a psychosis performs a valuable service doesn't make them not psychotic. It's not like I'm discounting your value to society because I happen to believe you're psychotic.

Lots of people are psychotic, roll with it.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

Lots of people are psychotic, roll with it.

I believe that's called Humanity.

 

[Yfelsung]

Lots of people are psychotic, roll with it.

I believe that's called Humanity.

Definitely true. The vast majority of our species is out of touch with reality. Luckily, truth isn't a democracy.

Now I believe you mentioned being Wiccan, which means you're pretty harmless in the grand scheme of things when it comes to religion. I've dated Wiccans, I have Wiccan friends and they're the last religion on earth I fear. I still happen to think they're silly, but I'm not going to start some grand crusade to wipe the religion from the earth.

The problem is that the vast majority of our species are not only somewhat psychotic, but their chosen form of psychosis is some pretty bad mojo.

Every religion or spiritual belief is rooted somewhere in a leap of blind faith, and even though this may lead to generally harmless things like most pagan religions, it can also lead to the Abrahamic gay hating, women hating, knowledge hating fuckwits we call Christians, Jews and Muslims.

So the way I see it is that you can go in with the knife and try to cut the bad tumours (Abrahamic faiths) and leave the benign tumours (Pagan religions, Buddhism etc) or you can go in wholesale and cut it all out.

My problem with leaving the benign tumours is that they could become deadly later. There's nothing that says that 300 years down the road that Wiccans become just as intolerant and hateful as Christians are now, we don't know how the faith will evolve. If I go in and cut out the Christianity, the Judaism and the Islam and leave the Wiccan and then 300 years down the road Wiccans start hanging people from trees for whatever reason, I see myself as responsible for those deaths.

It doesn't make me any friends, but these days I just have a scorched earth policy when it comes to religion of any kind, I can't risk the alternative.

Evil men will still kill. Good men will still save. But without religion it will become a lot harder to make a good man kill. It will still happen, but it will be harder and that's all I can aim for.

 

[masterjedijared]

What does anti-theism mean to me?

Being personally set against the fictions of deity claims. This can have a few varieties I think:
-Not only having non-belief but actually holding that the ideas and claims of deities are false
-Being open to discuss the follies of god beliefs
-Being total douche and screaming about how religion is teh ebils!

Personally, I'm the first two. I not only have a non-belief but see that deity claims are inherently false and I am willing to discuss this with folks.

 

[Zetetic]

In fact, the worlds most outspoken self-proclaimed anti-theist has come out precisely against this.

Yes, I have. Nice that someone has finally noticed.

I am completely against theism, so that makes me anti-theism... and smart! Theism is always something to be against, because it values faith over evidence and reason. Even when a religion is relatively benign, the idea that you should base your beliefs on anything other than sound reasoning, logic, and evidence? That's never benign, and we should all seek to eliminate it from our lives and the lives of others.

However, you can't eliminate it by banning religion, or attacking religious people in general. Freedom includes the right to have bad ideas, and even to act on them when they don't infringe on others. The answer to ignorance is education, and the answer to a bad idea is a better idea.

Why doesn't this just make you a Libertarian Anti-theist ? It's basically a libertarian position. So you are Libertarian about anti-theism, as opposed to being Stalinist (a word which I have noticed has been used hyperbolically as of late by Tea baggers who think that Stalin's worst crime was raising the tax rate to 45%).

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

- There's nothing that says that 300 years down the road that Wiccans become just as intolerant and hateful as Christians are now, we don't know how the faith will evolve. If I go in and cut out the Christianity, the Judaism and the Islam and leave the Wiccan and then 300 years down the road Wiccans start hanging people from trees for whatever reason, I see myself as responsible for those deaths.

Let's throw out the whole "An it harm none" thing for a second, and say that Wiccans WOULD hang people from trees.
For what? Name me one thing that Wicca would do that for.

Evil men will still kill. Good men will still save. But without religion it will become a lot harder to make a good man kill. It will still happen, but it will be harder and that's all I can aim for.

Firstly - isn't morality objective based upon the society you live in and it's standards?
Secondly - Religion isn't the only thing that makes good men kill. War does it all the time - out of nothing but sheer necessity Good Men are capable of atrocities.
That drug dealer might be selling to get his kid through college. That prostitute might be whoring because she needs to pay the rent. That man who robbed the store might have a family to support and he just got laid off his job. They should still be punished for their crimes, don't get me wrong - but don't play it off as if only evil people commit crimes.
There ain't no rest for the wicked - money don't grow on trees.
I got bills to pay and mouths to feed, ain't nothin' in this world for free.
No I can't slow down - I cant hold back ; though you know, I wish I could...
No there ain't no rest for the wicked 'till we close our eyes for good.

 

[AdmiralPeacock]

- There's nothing that says that 300 years down the road that Wiccans become just as intolerant and hateful as Christians are now, we don't know how the faith will evolve. If I go in and cut out the Christianity, the Judaism and the Islam and leave the Wiccan and then 300 years down the road Wiccans start hanging people from trees for whatever reason, I see myself as responsible for those deaths.

Let's throw out the whole "An it harm none" thing for a second, and say that Wiccans WOULD hang people from trees.
For what? Name me one thing that Wicca would do that for.

Lack of in their majiqual powers. They can be very touchy about that.

 

[masterjedijared]

Well... I have been present when a Wiccan kicked a dude in the face for some sort of religious disagreement. I admit though, that could be the exception that proves the rule though.

Extreme pacifism can be problematic too. I'll use Sam Harris' hyperbole example in "End of Faith" in which he describes a single psychotic can murder a whole city of pacifists with only a simple plastic knife. I know it's an odd anecdote to use but it shows that pacifism can have pitfalls too as a purely philosophical stance.

 

[Yfelsung]

- There's nothing that says that 300 years down the road that Wiccans become just as intolerant and hateful as Christians are now, we don't know how the faith will evolve. If I go in and cut out the Christianity, the Judaism and the Islam and leave the Wiccan and then 300 years down the road Wiccans start hanging people from trees for whatever reason, I see myself as responsible for those deaths.

Let's throw out the whole "An it harm none" thing for a second, and say that Wiccans WOULD hang people from trees.
For what? Name me one thing that Wicca would do that for.

Evil men will still kill. Good men will still save. But without religion it will become a lot harder to make a good man kill. It will still happen, but it will be harder and that's all I can aim for.

Firstly - isn't morality objective based upon the society you live in and it's standards?
Secondly - Religion isn't the only thing that makes good men kill. War does it all the time - out of nothing but sheer necessity Good Men are capable of atrocities.
That drug dealer might be selling to get his kid through college. That prostitute might be whoring because she needs to pay the rent. That man who robbed the store might have a family to support and he just got laid off his job. They should still be punished for their crimes, don't get me wrong - but don't play it off as if only evil people commit crimes.
There ain't no rest for the wicked - money don't grow on trees.
I got bills to pay and mouths to feed, ain't nothin' in this world for free.
No I can't slow down - I cant hold back ; though you know, I wish I could...
No there ain't no rest for the wicked 'till we close our eyes for good.

As I said, we don't know how the religion will evolve. Look at modern Christianity compared to the original faith, they have almost nothing in common at this point. Even Christianity within the last 100 years has changed dramatically.

The whole "other people do bad things" argument doesn't really fly either. Nothing says we wouldn't move onto a new issue once we finish with religion.

And you're right, all kinds of people commit crimes, but are you going to say that a man who steals for his family is equal to a man who kills for his God? One has a perfectly logical reason to break the law, the other is insane. Both should be punished but only one should be treated for a psychological disorder.

You will never agree with me on this no matter how much I argue my point, I know and accept this. I can't negotiate with the religious because I have been an atheist since the day I was born and I honestly cannot even think in the method that a theist does. The idea of believing in fairy tales is so alien to me that I can't even begin to understand where you're coming from, so I won't try.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

Lack of in their majiqual powers. They can be very touchy about that.

The most I would do is call you a free-trolling douche, and be done with it.

The whole "other people do bad things" argument doesn't really fly either. Nothing says we wouldn't move onto a new issue once we finish with religion.
...
And you're right, all kinds of people commit crimes, but are you going to say that a man who steals for his family is equal to a man who kills for his God? One has a perfectly logical reason to break the law, the other is insane. Both should be punished but only one should be treated for a psychological disorder.

But both break the law.
And the religious man is probably donating to the church's soup kitchen with the money he stole.

Faith becomes a psychological disorder when it begins interfering into one's daily life constantly - and then leading the person down paths that cause them to lie, cheat, and steal in order to fuel it. The typical Christian does not rob banks. Ironically, the typical Muslim does not bomb buildings.

You will never agree with me on this no matter how much I argue my point, I know and accept this. I can't negotiate with the religious because I have been an atheist since the day I was born and I honestly cannot even think in the method that a theist does. The idea of believing in fairy tales is so alien to me that I can't even begin to understand where you're coming from, so I won't try.

And rightly so.
However, if you do not understand the reasoning behind it - then you should not be trying to wipe it off the face of the Earth. Not only is it unethical to kill something you don't understand (simply because you don't understand it), but it's also a poor attack plan to not know the reasoning behind it. Imagine curing smallpox, thinking that it was an infection, and being disappointed when the subject runs out of the room screaming and infects the rest of the town and yourself.

Well... I have been present when a Wiccan kicked a dude in the face for some sort of religious disagreement. I admit though, that could be the exception that proves the rule though.

That's called being Human. I'm sure he did it on grounds of insulting someone - but it was not because the gods told him "Hey - you need to break him." The discussion was discerning that the Religion specifically was targeted to beating the guy's face in.

 

[Yfelsung]

I also don't understand how schizophrenics think, so I should never try to help one or eliminate the disorder if given the option?

Schizophrenics do good things too, so it's okay to never try to treat it?

There's a reason it is very easy to make faith and delusion look synonymous.

I see very little difference between religious belief and schizophrenia.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

I also don't understand how schizophrenics think, so I should never try to help one or eliminate the disorder if given the option?

Schizophrenics do good things too, so it's okay to never try to treat it?

There's a reason it is very easy to make faith and delusion look synonymous.

I see very little difference between religious belief and schizophrenia.

Except in this case it takes a well-trained doctor who knows the signs and conditions of schizophrenia to cure it; and in both cases we have you - a person who claims that not knowing the reasoning or the purpose of such thought processes can cure a mental disease.

 

[masterjedijared]

That's called being Human. I'm sure he did it on grounds of insulting someone - but it was not because the gods told him "Hey - you need to break him." The discussion was discerning that the Religion specifically was targeted to beating the guy's face in.

I'm pretty sure this entire forum is a testament to arguing that there won't ever be any gods telling anyone to do anything.