What are people going to do about the creationist problem?

[Shapeshifter]

Hi.

So I've been looking at this problem for a while, seen some videos about creationists and their tactics, and it is obviously a problem. Scientists have long ignored creationist ramblings because they are so absurd and unrealistic that any sane person would walk away. But apparently, people aren't walking away, many are in fact following this creationist mission. Now maybe I just missed it earlier, but I feel like this has been a growing problem lately.

But what are you going to do against it? What can and should people actually do to prevent our society from being destroyed by creationist stupidity? One of the biggest problems I found with creationists in the videos on youtube is, that you can't argue with them on a rational scientific basis. You can't "just" give them 100% conclusive evidence for something and expect them to be convinced. It doesn't work that way. And I wonder if itŝ possible for us to communicate with these people on a level they can follow so that they can be convinced not to destroy society. With everything that is written in this forum, everything I seen on youtube and everything else available on the net, I always see smart people trying to educate others. While this is very pleasant for me to watch and a nice thing in general, it should be obvious that creationists have no ear for education. I bet that not even a single "true" creationist was ever impressed by a video from thunderf00t, cdk007 or any other rationalist youtuber. Talking to a strongly religious person about science is like trying to tell an ant about outer space. But it just doesn't work that way. Just think of a creationists talking to you about whatever that holy book says to be true and such - there's no way you'd ever be convinced. It just doesn't work.

So what would one need to say to a creationist to make him listen? I guess imagining what a creationist had to say to you to make you listen is a good start. And of course "providing evidence" is not an option. Is there another? What would a creationist need to offer you so that you'd be convinced, other than evidence? What would one of us need to offer to a creationist to make him stop babbling about his fairy tales?

So that would be one thing to do: Convincing creationists to give up their beliefs. I guess this is the hardest one. There's two more generic things to do: Making sure unbiased people (mostly children) get the right education and consolidating already educated people in their knowledge. Now the last thing is catered to by nearly all the things scientific people are doing at the moment. Youtube videos and initiatives by individuals who've set their mind to fight creationism. On the matter of showing kids the right way on the other hand, realists are not very effective lately. We still have a great advantage simply because science is taught in schools, but in America they already try to teach ID in schools and in other countries as well. Outside of school, creationist missioners also find plenty of opportunity to recruit new followers to their cause (of destroying society). And the techniques creationist recruiters use to poison children with false beliefs are seemingly more effective than what "boring" science has to offer. There's no screaming an crying, no blessing by the lord and all that crap when doing science, so when taught the wrong way, science can actually piss children off instead of encouraging them. This is a huge problem.

Anyway. What do you think? Luckily, I'm not directly affected by any of this. Where I live, creationism isn't very popular. I myself only know two deeply religious people, one of which has a fairly rational view of the world nevertheless. But I wouldn't know what to do when being in actual contact with nuts like VFX or such. I mean the just don't fuckin' listen to a word you're saying...

Well. I'm done...

edit:
Oh on that matter, I just remembered: I think the worst thing anyone can do when talking to a religious person, is to insult him or her, saying that god is non-existant or any such thing. I think people should focus on how to "save" society, and not on mocking religious people. That won't get you anywhere anyway.

 

[Aught3]

Note: I only read the title.

In terms of creationists I think the best approach is mockery. Any hard core believers are just too stupid to bother with, and hopefully other people, who are more on the fence, will want to avoid being mocked and abused like the hard core believers. A little bit of education would also help. I'm not sure the majority of creationists even understand what it is they're denying.

 

[Shapeshifter]

I don't believe mockery works in general. It works on youtube apparently, but I don't think masses as big as the creationist crowd can be dismantled by mocking individuals or the crowd in general.

Some other things that came to my mind after posting: One other thing I think has to be thought of is that god should not be taken away from them too fast. A believer should be aware that most of science does not conflict with religion. Religion should not be looked at as something dangerous to personal belief. So talking to a religious person, I think it is important to stress the positive gains of following the scientific matter, and not start by proving god doesn't exist.

 

[Aught3]

Oh, you're one of those people, lol.

I can recognise that the political approach is probably a good idea, and will work better than the approach I would usually take in some situations. However, I am incapable of following this approach myself. I see creationism as only one of the many stupid beliefs that these type of people hold, and I just find it hypocritical to say that it is fine to hold one belief that I think is stupid, yet argue with them, on the same basis, with a different belief.

Just to reiterate, I do think the above approach can work, and I'm glad that there are other people who can take care of it. I just can't do it myself.

 

[PuppetXeno]

Well it's really hard. One on one, in a real personal situation, I've found it usually takes well over an hour of discussion before a creationist starts to understand where they went wrong in their ideas. And that doesn't mean they'll drop their ideas, but atleast they'll start thinking about them. On youtube (or forums) people are less likely to budge at all... I mean often they simply will not take in the information you can provide.

In comments I always give my best effort to "correct the mistakes" of a displayed misconception of evolution.. But comment boxes are small... And before long zealous fundies will start spamming bible trivia to push the comment away.

Or they just won't listen. I posted a comment recently - not about creationism per se, but it shows how the response completely ignores the point I was trying to make:

Stop your petty disputes over whose prophet is better and actually understand their teachings of love and tolerance instead. Wars are fought and people are being killed over religion; THAT CAN'T BE GOOD. And is a reason why I refute any religion at all.

It saddens me deeply to see people live in fear everyday, fear of divine punishment. I cannot conceive a benevolent god who wants that for his people. Why would anyone want to worship such a deity? There's so many more kinder and nicer ones.

And the response:

We have laws here on earth do we not. And there are consequences when they are broken so why my friend are you surprised that it is the same with God.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So what did he miss?

My entire point. There is no use trying to discuss anything with people like this.

 

[WolfAU]

Religion is a process of non-thinking. What are we going to do about it... force them to think.

Like any other issue, one should not expect to win over the 100% hardcore devoted fundies on a topic, the worthwhile cause is the middle ground. Those who call themselves religious but are having doubts, or those who call themselves agnostic.

Also I think you'll find if you're in the West, you will be being effected by this. For example in Australia, theism is much less prevalent then atheism, however Australia seems to look to America in terms of what laws to implement. If gay marriage, gay adoption, abortion etc become a big issue in the states they become so over here etc.

The ideal outcome is not to remove theism truly, but keep it as a kind of lingering residual cultural trait, possibly even having unchecked theism be held up as a warning for future generations (ie this is what happens when we let stupidity run rampant).

 

[JacobEvans]

I don't know what it is about mockery, but it sure does make Creationists rethink their beliefs.

It is my belief that mockery is best used on Creationists who are actually intelligent. Intelligent people can formulate very elaborate excuses for their delusions, and are equally capable of dismantling such delusions if they are forced to reevaluate them.

Mockery towards the less intelligent is not only unjustafyable in that the reasoning above won't apply, but it's also unnecessary as unintelligent people aren't capable of much harm (at least when it comes to Creationists, Religious radicals are a different matter), and they won't be convincing enough to make more intelligent people believe them.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I think we should have a multi-layered approach that includes mockery... and you guys can handle the rest of it!

Seriously, you have to gauge the audience a bit. Mockery can be effective, especially when someone has obviously stepped on their own dick. Often I think the mockery is for us more than it is for them, in a "rally the troops" sort of way. The inclusion of mockery makes a really important point: creationist beliefs are fundamentally deserving of more mockery than we can possibly aim at it.

 

[UNFFwildcard]

According to the NAS, the association of evolution with atheism is the largest inhibitor to the general public learning about evolution.

If you want to educate creationists, start by destroying this association. Correspond with Christians who understand and respect evolutionary theory, and use them to your aid.

 

[DarwinsOtherTheory]

I think we should have a multi-layered approach that includes mockery... and you guys can handle the rest of it!

Seriously, you have to gauge the audience a bit. Mockery can be effective, especially when someone has obviously stepped on their own dick. Often I think the mockery is for us more than it is for them, in a "rally the troops" sort of way. The inclusion of mockery makes a really important point: creationist beliefs are fundamentally deserving of more mockery than we can possibly aim at it.

I wanna be on your team.

 

[buzzausa]

You're right about the fact that even in front of strong (or convclusive as you put it) evidence creationists will not give, and they also do not follow logic reasoning very well.

I disagree with you however on your idea of convincing them to give up their beliefs. See, as far as I'm concerned anybody can hold whatever belief they want, the problem starts when they (purposely or ignorantly) confound their beliefs with science. The problem then gets worse when they demand their beliefs to be recognized as legitimate science.

So what can reasonable people do to stop this wave of ignorance from reaching the halls of learning? I thought about that and as I said, logic reasoning will not work (mockery is also deleterious in my opinion) the only thing to do is play with their rules: as soon as religious enthusiasts gather and ask that ID be taught along with evolution in science classes (they have done it and they have obtained it) you take 4 or 5 of your friends and start asking that to be fair the flying spaghetti monster story, the deeds of AndromedasWake magnetic-field-devouring space duck, the egyptian sun god myth of creation, the greek mythology account for the creation of man and any other you can think of (or make up), be taught also....to be fair and as they put it "to let the students know what alternatives are there and let them decide what they want to believe".

At the point, either they allow all creation myths to be taught (allowing only one would be clearly arbitrary and unfair and you can make a lot of noise about that) or they allow none of them to be taught, and science (you know, the real one) prevails.

 

[Hammerstein]

I find it extremely frustrating "debating" creationists sometimes and you are right, some of them, it seems will accept nothing that even remotely violates their world view. I think I will have to start taking it less seriously.
I have been "debating" a Youtube user "internetpastortv" who I have discovered is a lunatic of the first order, everything from the good old "the second law of thermodynamics disproves evolution" to "The earth used to be a gigantic hyperbaric chamber" sigh.
No matter how many facts and corrections I come up with he just refuses to concede anything.
He actually told me today that "Hubble proved the earth was the centre of the universe because he found all the galaxies were moving away from earth at the same rate". When I informed him that Hubble's discoveries actually proved the universe is much older than we thought and that some galaxies were moving towards us, he said "I meant all the observable galaxies, Hubble only had a very rudimentary telescope". Hubble actually had access to one of the world's then most advanced telescopes, the 100 inch Hooker telescope at Mt Wilson. When I then told him that and advised him that the Andromeda galaxy was moving towards us and that the galaxy was actually able to be seen with the naked eye, he called me a liar and then blocked me!
Stunning.

Feel free to look up his videos and take him on sometime.

 

[Kattarina98]

According to the NAS, the association of evolution with atheism is the largest inhibitor to the general public learning about evolution.

If you want to educate creationists, start by destroying this association. Correspond with Christians who understand and respect evolutionary theory, and use them to your aid.

Yes, we must not fall into that trap set up by creationist propaganda.

With Muslim fundies, there is an argument to make them listen. Remind them that in the MIddle Ages, it was Islam to promote science (general literacy, mathematics, medicine, astronomy, rational philosophy) when the church banned science. So they should continue that tradition.

 

[Aught3]

Do you think the christians will come 'round to our way of thinking when muslims start asking for their creation myths to be taught in schools?

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Do you think the christians will come 'round to our way of thinking when muslims start asking for their creation myths to be taught in schools?

They usually do.

 

[ebbixx]

With Muslim fundies, there is an argument to make them listen. Remind them that in the MIddle Ages, it was Islam to promote science (general literacy, mathematics, medicine, astronomy, rational philosophy) when the church banned science. So they should continue that tradition.

One can make a similar argument for Christianity. I don't know if anyone has mentioned David Noble's The Religion of Technology or not, in these debates. And I'm not saying it will convince many of the creationist fundies, since many of their views are already at odds with those of many old-line Christian denominations anyway.

I really see this as a political issue, and one that is probably working itself out as we speak, at least in the US.

Creationist know-nothings have one great strength, politically. They make great followers and are much easier to herd than rationalists, atheists and advocates of empiricism. As such, despite being a minority within even their own political (Republican) Party they have, for all practical purposes, managed to hijack that party and turn it to serve their own agenda, largely to the exclusion of all other likely constituencies within that party.

I see this as a big part of the reason why Arlen Specter just became a Democrat, while the current head of the Republicans continues to adjust deck chairs and claim that the party is doing just fine, thanks for asking. Not that I see that as a problem, having never voted Republican myself.

Actually, if one wanted to nullify the Creationist influence of public policy one would probably have more chance of success by getting them in dialogue with more mainstream Christians who long ago gave up on trying to dictate God's message by insisting on literal interpretations of a book that tends to contradict itself when actually read closely. Let other Christians duke it out, as a non-Christian, any ideas you may have about a rationalist deliverance are probably just going to serve as the intellectual equivalent of chumming the waters... all they're likely to see is another lost soul that needs saving. They won't be listening to your arguments at all, in 98 or 99 cases in a hundred.

 

[Epicion]

With Muslim fundies, there is an argument to make them listen. Remind them that in the MIddle Ages, it was Islam to promote science (general literacy, mathematics, medicine, astronomy, rational philosophy) when the church banned science. So they should continue that tradition.

/Facepalm

It's too long winded of a topic for me to cover extensively, Just know that a random imaam stood up, said that it was against God's word and people believed him. A spokesman mentions him in the "Beyond Belief" series.

As for the topic, I'm sure somewhere in another forum, The very same question is being asked regarding Atheists =/

-AmazingMuslim

 

[Kattarina98]

Are you talking about a specific event, or do you mean every muslim fundie will bow to any imam's word without further questioning? - You robbed me of another feeble hope. :cry:

Or do you doubt the beneficial impact of e.g. the university of Toledo, a beacon of enlightenment in the Dark Ages in Europe? After the Reconquista, Europe fell back into ignorance for centuries,

 

[Epicion]

Are you talking about a specific event, or do you mean every muslim fundie will bow to any imam's word without further questioning? - You robbed me of another feeble hope. :cry:

=/ to generalise an entire faith by the actions of them from an earlier time is equivalent of criticising christians e.g "Do you mean every christian fundie gets a sword and goes crusading other countries for God?"

It's one of the reasons why I said, it was too long winded of a topic and only gave the information needed.

-AmazingMuslim

 

[JacobEvans]

=/ to generalise an entire faith by the actions of them from an earlier time is equivalent of criticising christians e.g "Do you mean every christian fundie gets a sword and goes crusading other countries for God?

Considering that few Christians actually frequent the LoR, a better analogy seems to be in order. :lol: