VyckRo - Questions?

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

I play baseball.
I don't play baseball.
I am not denying that baseball exists - I'm just not playing it.

I drink lemonade.
I don't drink lemonade.
I am not denying that lemonade exists - I just don't drink it.

I believe in the divine.
They don't believe in any divine.
That doesn't mean that they are denying that a divine exists - they just don't believe in it.

I can do this for every verb in the english language.

Vyck, I'm not an atheist - but I will fight you tooth and nail to call you on your nonsense.
Why? When I was a child my mother took me to Sunday School where we learned that lying is bad, and that those with tongues of serpents are just as bad as liars.

And, you know, I passed English class.

 

[Laurens]

An object can not be invisible and colored at the same time!
see? is simple

Yes, but your world view is based upon a limited naturalistic assumption that invisible things cannot have colour. You cannot prove that in the supernatural realm (which is invisible to us) things do not have colour. Your bias prevents you from understanding. Its silly to talk of something naturalistically being pink and invisible, but these things make sense if you grant the supernatural.

And thus apologetics is born...

 

[Anachronous Rex]

An object can not be invisible and colored at the same time!
see? is simple

A being can't be one person and three at the same time.

I'm glad this sort of reasoning is acceptable to you.

 

[Gnug215]

VyckRo, let's try something, then.

It's kind of a reverse useage of the Socratic method.

[Scene: Exterior, marble floor, Greek colums and shit.]

Socrates: "Hi Gnug215."
Gnug215: "Hi So'crates!"
Socrates: "No no, it's "Soh-craates" - (points to anyone who gets this semi-obscure reference.)
Gnug215: "Alright."
Socrates: "I'll get right to the point: Do you believe in God?"
Gnug215: "Hmm, what exactly do you mean when you say 'God'?"
Socrates: "You know, the big guy upstairs, creator of the universe."
[Socrates points up in the air.]
Gnug215: "So like, the Christian God?"
Socrates: "Sure."
[Gnug215 contemplates for a few seconds.]
Gnug215: "Mmno, not really."
Socrates: "Not really?"
Gnug215: "Yeah, the Christian God, although described in many, many different ways, depending on which Christian you ask, seems unlikely."
Socrates: "Ok, God seems unlikely. So you're not denying his existence?"
Gnug215: "No, not really, but by account of some of the descriptions given by some Christians, God seems internally inconsistent and illogical."
Socrates: "I see, but by some definitions, it is not unlikely that God exists?"
Gnug215: "I suppose not. I mean, it would be fantastical, but I can't rule it out."
Socrates: "So in short, you're not denying God's existence."
Gnug215: "No."
[Socrates paces around briefly, looking into the ground.]
Socrates: "What about other gods?"
Gnug215: "Well, some are more unlikely than others. Like, gods for various natural phenomena that we now have a natural explanation for."
Socrates: "Such as Thor and Ra?"
Gnug215: "Yeah, I'm pretty sure those don't exist."
Socrates: "Ok, so back to the Christian God. You said 'not really' earlier, but let me ask you this way: Do you believe in the Christian God, yes or no?"
Gnug215: "No. I would have to say no."
[Socrates paces around some more, nodding to himself.]
Socrates: "So to sum up, you don't really believe in any God or gods, but you are not actively denying their existence?"
Gnug215: "That is correct."
Socrates: "Ok. So what kind of label would you put on yourself?"
Gnug215: "I don't really know."
Socrates: "How come?"
Gnug215: "There seems to be a lot of confusion around the available labels."
Socrates: "Such as?"
[Socrates grabs his toga-covered crotch, as if trying to correct tight underwear, but he doesn't have any.]
Gnug215: "Well, the label 'atheist', for instance. To many theists, they think it means you not just don't believe in God, but actively deny God's existence."
Socrates: "But that's nonsense!"
[Socrates flails wildly with one arm - the other arm still busy adjusting something in his groinal area.]
Gnug215: "Oh, I know, but these kinds of 'Word Wars' seem to be a hit these days."
Socrates: "But words are meant to help convey meaning, not muddle things up!"
Gnug215: "You're preaching to the choir there."
Socrates: "This shit wouldn't fly in the olden days!"
[Socrates and Gnug215 both look around slightly confused for half a second.]
Gnug215: "That's not even the worst part."
Socrates: "Oh?"
Gnug215: "Some theists seem to think that being an atheist means you actually do believe in God, but you're just suppressing his existence."
Socrates: "... the fuck??"
[Socrates raises his eyebrow wildly.]
Gnug215: "I know. And then they say it's because atheists don't want to be accountable to God's judgment."
Socrates: "How the hell does that help, when you know God exists?"
Gnug215: "No clue."
[Gnug215 gestures with both hands.]
Socrates: "That's like a criminal trying to ignore the existence of the Police in order to avoid punishment for a crime he committed."
Gnug215: "That's a fairly accurate analogy of this absurd accusation, I'd say."
[Gnug215 nods, visibly impressed.]
Socrates: "Weirdoes. I've gotta tell Plato about this. He'll freak."
Gnug215: "Good ol' Plato, always the freaky one."
[Socrates smiles to himself for a second.]
Socrates: "Ok, but so, to finish off, do you have some kind of label of your own you could use, or something to describe you?"
Gnug215: "I think have something, but it's kinda long."
Socrates: "Well, if people can't handle simple, single words, then long will have to do. Fire away!"
Gnug215: "True. Well ok, I am someone who when asked the question 'Do you believe in God?' will not answer 'yes'."
Socrates: "Nice."
[Socrates nods approvingly. Camera zooms out to a wide establishing shot of the area, fade to black.]


So what did we learn today?

Here are some test questions for you, VyckRo (although anyone else is free to chime in!):

1: What do you call someone who does not believe in God?
2: What do you call someone who disbelieves in God?
3: What do you call someone who denies the existence of God?
4: What do you call someone who denies the existence of God, and yet somehow still fears God's punishment?
5: What do you call someone who does not believe in God, but... actually in secrecy really does believe in God?
6: What do you call someone who does not accept the existence of God?
7: What do you call someone who denies the existence of most gods?
8: What do you call someone who denies the existence of all gods except one?
9: What do you call someone who says they do believe in God, but when pressed really mean stuff like God is "Nature", "the Universe" or "Love"?
10: What do you call someone who Isn't sure whether or not God exists?
11: What do you call someone who doesn't know if God exists?
12: What do you call someone who doesn't know God exists, but still decides to believe in God "just to be safe!"?
13: What do you call someone who doesn't really care whether or not God exists?
14: What do you call someone who answers "no" when asked if they believe in God?
15: What do you call someone who does not answer "yes" when asked if they believe in God?<i></i>

 

[Inferno]

PS.
People who do not know or are unsure, enter in another category

Because of this statement, I thought it would be important to show this:

 

[Dogma's Demise]

VyckRo, I'm going to argue a different stance.

I'm going to agree with you, an atheist is someone who holds the belief that gods don't exist.

Here's a good article on the subject written by another atheist: http://www.evilbible.com/Definition_of_Atheism_1.htm

And that is also how I identify myself. I don't "lack a belief", I actively reject God, god, gods and godesses as untrue. I am not completely certain that no such being exists (unless of course we're talking about specific, clearly defined, gods) I simply find it to be a more plausible worldview, which is why I don't consider myself agnostic.

I see no evidence whatsoever for magic or anything supernatural, and I find the idea of a god who wants to be worshiped but hides himself from human beings behind a bunch of fallible and often corrupt middle-men to be patently absurd. That is not the behavior of a being who wants any kind of meaningful relationship with his creation, in fact it sounds kinda creepy and, well, made up.

We already know about humans' tendencies to fabricate religions and see agency where there is none with our imperfect perception of reality (you'd probably know about this if you ever read the God Delusion or didn't skip psychology classes in high school) which makes ANY claim of divine revelation have 0 credibility by default.

And frankly it doesn't matter if a person lacks a belief in god or believes that a god does not exist. Agnostic or atheist, it's still you who has the burden of proof, you are making the positive claim about the concrete existence of something.


And about the deist god, these kind of unfalsifiable hypotheses are not worth anybody's time, you might as well argue we can't disprove prove solipsism. From a practical point of view, the deist god is irrelevant to our existence so even if he were real, we would still live our lives as if he didn't.


So that's my case for the non-existence of a generic, unspecific god. I'm well aware you cannot ultimately prove atheism, but that doesn't mean you can just ignore shades of probability. I'm surprised that you can see the absurdity of an invisible pink unicorn but not of your own god which you are willing to rationalize in multiple ways. "Oh he kills babies, don't worry, they go to Heaven YAY!"

I mean I can make a similar case that an immaterial lifeform is a contradiction (after all, we are our own brain, without all those PHYSICAL neurons firing and our basic PHYSICAL senses thought and experiencing reality is impossible, we know of NO mechanism by which immaterial existence is even possible just like we don't know of any mechanism by which something can be invisible and pink at the same time in some way or how God can be 3 persons yet 1 at the same time), but you would just say "oh you're just using your narrow-minded materialist understanding of the reality of organisms". So if you followed that same line of reasoning with the invisible pink unicorn and applied it to god, what would you be? (Hey don't be mad, I'm just using your metod here. You can't have your cake and eat it.)