US ex-soldier guilty of Iraq rape

[Otokogoroshi]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8039257.stm

I actually cried out in pure shock when I read this.... just... disgusting!

 

[ImprobableJoe]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8039257.stm

I actually cried out in pure shock when I read this.... just... disgusting!

As a former Marine, and a proud American... all I can express is a grim satisfaction that some amount of justice has been served in this case. As much as I would love to see these animals face as much torture as can be inflicted without killing them, I am glad to see that while the wheels of justice tend to mill slowly, the also grind very finely.

 

[Otokogoroshi]

The fact that he didn't act alone makes it... just all the more horrifying.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

The fact that he didn't act alone makes it... just all the more horrifying.

At the same time, it is completely expected. Men tend to lose their ability to comprehend the harm they do when they are in the presence of other men. Women tend to assume that the fact that other men were around would make it harder to commit an atrocity. The reality is that when there are a group of men involved, especially in the military, the situations tend to escalate because no one wants to be the one to say "no."

 

[Otokogoroshi]

I was actually in the Army, back before the I went crazy, and well... that whole 'break you down and build you up' thing never worked on me ><


I wonder what kind of issues that they allude to actually are.

 

[monitoradiation]

I wonder what kind of issues that they allude to actually are.

They're probably building an insanity plea.

These kinds of stories make me wish I had a biblical worldview in deciding whom we should be allowed to kill. Unfortunately, I'm against the death penalty but cannot think of a good reason to justify maintaining the life of this man. Imprisonment seems too lax and death penalty seems to "stoop to their levels". We need a better system...

 

[Lunar Sonata]

At the same time, it is completely expected. Men tend to lose their ability to comprehend the harm they do when they are in the presence of other men. Women tend to assume that the fact that other men were around would make it harder to commit an atrocity. The reality is that when there are a group of men involved, especially in the military, the situations tend to escalate because no one wants to be the one to say "no."

All's fair in love and war....

:roll:

 

[ImprobableJoe]

All's fair in love and war....

:roll:

It isn't about "fair" at all. It is about group dynamics, combined with a rather uniquely stressful situation, made worse by the Army's lowered standards because of low retention rates.

 

[Lunar Sonata]

It isn't about "fair" at all. It is about group dynamics, combined with a rather uniquely stressful situation, made worse by the Army's lowered standards because of low retention rates.

Right, I agree about the lowered standards. I just don't believe there is anything unique about this situation, at all. Rape is an act that is prevalent when it comes to war (in any region, in any era) and it has always been such. (Nanking massacres come to mind)

While never actively experiencing it, I am sure being on the battlefield brings incomparable stress that people break under the weight of it and/or try to find outlets to cope... acts, many of which simply shouldn't be viable to a nation which prides itself on doing the right thing. And you're absolutely right, it is not a question of fairness but of the situations you've mentioned. It shames me to see this sort of thing going on and I am not naive enough to believe it is an isolated case.

It seems you have practical experience in combat situations, and I am sure the line of morality is blurred when there is a common 'enemy'. I understand that idea, but I cannot see these acts of violence as being unique.

At any rate, there needs to be more screening going on. Not everyone can be admitted to be a soldier b.c they lack the responsibility to make good choices.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Right, I agree about the lowered standards. I just don't believe there is anything unique about this situation, at all. Rape is an act that is prevalent when it comes to war (in any region, in any era) and it has always been such. (Nanking massacres come to mind)

While never actively experiencing it, I am sure being on the battlefield brings incomparable stress that people break under the weight of it and/or try to find outlets to cope... acts, many of which simply shouldn't be viable to a nation which prides itself on doing the right thing. And you're absolutely right, it is not a question of fairness but of the situations you've mentioned. It shames me to see this sort of thing going on and I am not naive enough to believe it is an isolated case.

It seems you have practical experience in combat situations, and I am sure the line of morality is blurred when there is a common 'enemy'. I understand that idea, but I cannot see these acts of violence as being unique.

At any rate, there needs to be more screening going on. Not everyone can be admitted to be a soldier b.c they lack the responsibility to make good choices.

Screening is only part of the problem. The bigger problem is that the military isn't trained to face the prospect of a long occupation.

Fortunately, I did not personally see any combat action, but I was trained in a rather intense way for it. Much of that training was designed to dehumanize the enemy, in order to make us more effective in killing without hesitation. It isn't like police training, that teaches you to differentiate between criminals and bystanders. We were taught to kill anything not wearing an American uniform. It is interesting that you use the term "battlefield" because that's sort of the problem. We imagine and train for a battlefield consisting of an "us and them" situation. We kill "them" before they can kill "us." At least back then we weren't trained to deal with civilian populations in any manner, there was ZERO training on that score.

And, well... there was lots of rape, spousal abuse, and sexual harassment within the military. It is a fucking disgrace, and our culture is ingrained to believe that talking about the crimes of the military is unacceptable, but the reality is that even in the best of times the behavior of the military is unsatisfactory in some areas. The training and the screening is insufficient to prevent members of the military to be efficient killers, and at the same time prevent an increase in unnecessary violence. If we couldn't protect our own people in peacetime, how the hell can we protect anyone?

 

[Lunar Sonata]

If we couldn't protect our own people in peacetime, how the hell can we protect anyone?

Fortunately, I did not personally see any combat action, but I was trained in a rather intense way for it. Much of that training was designed to dehumanize the enemy, in order to make us more effective in killing without hesitation. It isn't like police training, that teaches you to differentiate between criminals and bystanders. We were taught to kill anything not wearing an American uniform. It is interesting that you use the term "battlefield" because that's sort of the problem. We imagine and train for a battlefield consisting of an "us and them" situation. We kill "them" before they can kill "us." At least back then we weren't trained to deal with civilian populations in any manner, there was ZERO training on that score.

Right. To clarify, I mean to reveal 'battlefield' not merely as a place, but as a state of mind as opposed to an actual location. I know of soldiers that come home after the war, after fighting on the field, and they are still on the "battlefield" when they come home. Nerves shot, they are reduced to machines. They are trapped into a mentality they can't escape from. Their nervous system, in a state of peril, now intertwined with a mentality that is very volatile and dangerous to those around them. We can find examples of this all the time.

The army does break people down. Fashions people into killing machines. They become programmed to show a specific type of behavior and then it becomes a part of them.

Ex-soldiers actions often indicate a fulfilled NEED to carry out the fullest extent of that programming, even when they are home and out of harms way. The battlefield follows them wherever they go. Vietnam veterans were thrown under the carpet when they came home... I hate to think that the sort of programming needed to teach soldiers how to both identify and kill enemies in a 'battlefield' setting somehow robs individuals of their ability to reason, maintain compassion and actually trains the humanity out of them, but it happens. THAT, to me, is an even larger problem than the screening bit... so good points you bring up here.

So I am not disagreeing with any of your points. The military is not humane and wasn't meant to be. Not every soldiers can handle this responsibility while keeping the integrity of their humanity intact. This is one of the biggest problems faced right now, IMO. People are getting stretched and are wilting under the pressure. I hope these soldiers are treated a bit differently than in the case of Vietnam vets.

All is certainly not fair in love and war, so the introduction of the phrase to this thread was meant to be ironic.