JustBusiness17
New Member
Just wanted to point out that locking threads in this forum without explanation conveys a rather centralized (authoritarian) power structure in this supposedly decentralized (community based) discussion forum...
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Unresolved Locked Threads in the Issues & Suggestions Forum
- Thread starter JustBusiness17
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JustBusiness17
New Member
Re: Unresolved Locked Threads in the Issues & Suggestions Fo
Since this was one of the discussions that I wanted to have and the thread was re-opened as a legitimate topic of conversation, I figured I would stick around and see if evolves into anything worthwhile...
I'm curious if LoR's management team has considered all the implications of this rule. I see at least one potential drawback which bothers me because I've only ever looked out for the progress of this community. It seems to me that this has the potential to interfere with those opportunities within the community. That basically means that I've been a much bigger pain in the ass than I originally thought (and I'm probably still being one :twisted: ). This will definitely quell some of the more boisterous conversations and persistent users, but is that worth the limitations it puts on conversation?
I ask this because one of the key features of a decentralized organization is the free flow of information throughout all ranks. In other words, a janitor's ideas are valued as much as an idea that originated anywhere else in the power structure. It's the Google approach to innovation. As far as I know, putting limits on discussion is pretty much the opposite of what decentralized organizations aim to do... Promoting constructive conflict.
Just my thoughts :|
Since this was one of the discussions that I wanted to have and the thread was re-opened as a legitimate topic of conversation, I figured I would stick around and see if evolves into anything worthwhile...
It seems that this highly visible message was inspired by me. I'm sorry that my conduct was so radical to warrant a new rule and didn't realize I was being so out of line.LoR said:
I'm curious if LoR's management team has considered all the implications of this rule. I see at least one potential drawback which bothers me because I've only ever looked out for the progress of this community. It seems to me that this has the potential to interfere with those opportunities within the community. That basically means that I've been a much bigger pain in the ass than I originally thought (and I'm probably still being one :twisted: ). This will definitely quell some of the more boisterous conversations and persistent users, but is that worth the limitations it puts on conversation?
I ask this because one of the key features of a decentralized organization is the free flow of information throughout all ranks. In other words, a janitor's ideas are valued as much as an idea that originated anywhere else in the power structure. It's the Google approach to innovation. As far as I know, putting limits on discussion is pretty much the opposite of what decentralized organizations aim to do... Promoting constructive conflict.
Wikipedia: Group Conflict said:
Just my thoughts :|
JustBusiness17
New Member
Re: Unresolved Locked Threads in the Issues & Suggestions Fo
Edit: I encourage others who may be pre-occupied with these same concerns to post in this thread rather than disrupting this or other threads that I may participate in.
Undecided atm. Can we stay on topic please.Eidolon said:
Edit: I encourage others who may be pre-occupied with these same concerns to post in this thread rather than disrupting this or other threads that I may participate in.
Re: Unresolved Locked Threads in the Issues & Suggestions Fo
Dude, I think you are reading way too deeply into this. Its just a forum. Seriously, you're using terms like "decentralized organization" and "group conflict" to describe the conditions of the forum. Its not a socialist regime, or democratically elected body. Its just a forum. The hierachy is just the admins, and various mods, and users. I think you are making this is to a much much larger deal than it actually is. Just post something when you have something to say on an issue or start a new thread when you have something to talk about, and just go with it. You don't have to get all political about it when something doesn't go the way you wanted it too. Just move on, or bitch about it for a few minutes, and then move on. But the whole "I'm leaving, but I keep coming back, then I leave again, but come back one more time, and can't make up my mind if I'm leaving or staying" is really starting to make you look melodramatic.
Dude, I think you are reading way too deeply into this. Its just a forum. Seriously, you're using terms like "decentralized organization" and "group conflict" to describe the conditions of the forum. Its not a socialist regime, or democratically elected body. Its just a forum. The hierachy is just the admins, and various mods, and users. I think you are making this is to a much much larger deal than it actually is. Just post something when you have something to say on an issue or start a new thread when you have something to talk about, and just go with it. You don't have to get all political about it when something doesn't go the way you wanted it too. Just move on, or bitch about it for a few minutes, and then move on. But the whole "I'm leaving, but I keep coming back, then I leave again, but come back one more time, and can't make up my mind if I'm leaving or staying" is really starting to make you look melodramatic.
JustBusiness17
New Member
Re: Unresolved Locked Threads in the Issues & Suggestions Fo
This is the second time that I'm requesting that we stay on topic. You're are also trying to speak on behalf of the community's management staff which is explicitly frowned upon by AndromedasWake in the forum rules.Eidolon said:
Re: Unresolved Locked Threads in the Issues & Suggestions Fo
I figured we could go for a third.
Basically just means, don't be a douche and try to boss people around when you have no authority to do so. My statement doesn't apply in this case, becuase I'm not ordering you to stop the melodramatic nonsense. I'm just giving you friendly advice that you should stop making yourself look like a drama queen.
Just sayin'
JustBusiness17 said:
I figured we could go for a third.
Forum Commandments said:
Basically just means, don't be a douche and try to boss people around when you have no authority to do so. My statement doesn't apply in this case, becuase I'm not ordering you to stop the melodramatic nonsense. I'm just giving you friendly advice that you should stop making yourself look like a drama queen.
Just sayin'
JustBusiness17
New Member
Re: Unresolved Locked Threads in the Issues & Suggestions Fo
Look man, this thread was locked and then subsequently unlocked as a legitimate thread for the issues and suggestions forum. If you have some sort of personal vendetta against me or want to share any more of this friendly advice, lets deal with it in private.
You have now caused 6 unnecessary posts in a thread which you seem to have no interest in discussing. Minimalizing and trivializing issues only serve to inhibit constructive conflict (see above). If you have an opinion which provides healthy input into the subject, I invite you to discuss it. But if you insist on derailing the conversation, I expect that one of the mods will be in contact with you.
Since you seem to have particular hang-up which seems to bother you enough to disrupt a legitimate discussion, I refer you to the first line of the post that initiated our dialogue:
Look man, this thread was locked and then subsequently unlocked as a legitimate thread for the issues and suggestions forum. If you have some sort of personal vendetta against me or want to share any more of this friendly advice, lets deal with it in private.
You have now caused 6 unnecessary posts in a thread which you seem to have no interest in discussing. Minimalizing and trivializing issues only serve to inhibit constructive conflict (see above). If you have an opinion which provides healthy input into the subject, I invite you to discuss it. But if you insist on derailing the conversation, I expect that one of the mods will be in contact with you.
Since you seem to have particular hang-up which seems to bother you enough to disrupt a legitimate discussion, I refer you to the first line of the post that initiated our dialogue:
JustBusiness17 said:
AndromedasWake
New Member
Re: Unresolved Locked Threads in the Issues & Suggestions Fo
The discussion is decentralised, but the management of features isn't. I like the idea of being able to get community suggestions posted, assessed and implemented if:
1. The mods think it's a good idea and the webmaster says it's feasible
2. There is massive demand, which doesn't happen often, but ultimately cannot be ignored when trying to build a site which reflects the community's desires and isn't unfair
Bear in mind that any implementations are made at the expense of the webmaster's time, so I think it's only reasonable that he be able to veto things, especially cosmetic changes. He also takes it upon himself to fix problems, and this subforum is intended to bring them to his attention and my own.
There is no clear standard for what power structure a community forum should employ, but as the mod team adopts more mature and responsible individuals, changes will occur as they are thrashed out.
JustBusiness17 said:
The discussion is decentralised, but the management of features isn't. I like the idea of being able to get community suggestions posted, assessed and implemented if:
1. The mods think it's a good idea and the webmaster says it's feasible
2. There is massive demand, which doesn't happen often, but ultimately cannot be ignored when trying to build a site which reflects the community's desires and isn't unfair
Bear in mind that any implementations are made at the expense of the webmaster's time, so I think it's only reasonable that he be able to veto things, especially cosmetic changes. He also takes it upon himself to fix problems, and this subforum is intended to bring them to his attention and my own.
There is no clear standard for what power structure a community forum should employ, but as the mod team adopts more mature and responsible individuals, changes will occur as they are thrashed out.
JustBusiness17
New Member
Re: Unresolved Locked Threads in the Issues & Suggestions Fo
What level of democracy are you implying? For the last 11 years, I've only been able to understand political philosophies as existing on a spectrum.Squawk said:
JustBusiness17
New Member
Re: Unresolved Locked Threads in the Issues & Suggestions Fo
1) How can mods effectively assess ideas if they haven't been discussed at length? In other words, how can you choose a direction if a picture of all the likely outcomes hasn't been developed?
2) How can sufficient demand develop if hasty decisions are made and conversation of the subject is hence forth off-limits? For example, when I suggested a post rating feature, the discussion was immediately cut short and locked after being informed that it had already been discussed and ruled upon. Supporting my first question, your idea for thread rating was an extension of that conversation and could have been brought up in the same thread had it not been prematurely locked. Discouraging conversations like that reduces the number of ideas that hit the table and give you fewer options to choose from.
You never know what a shitty idea will develop into. While I know the discussions that occur in this forum are brainstorming par se, however I encourage people involved in moderating this section to refer to rules 1 thru 5 in this article about effective brainstorming principles: http://www.brainstorming.co.uk/tutorials/brainstormingprinciples.html
Thank you for bringing this up. I have 2 questions:AndromedasWake said:
1) How can mods effectively assess ideas if they haven't been discussed at length? In other words, how can you choose a direction if a picture of all the likely outcomes hasn't been developed?
2) How can sufficient demand develop if hasty decisions are made and conversation of the subject is hence forth off-limits? For example, when I suggested a post rating feature, the discussion was immediately cut short and locked after being informed that it had already been discussed and ruled upon. Supporting my first question, your idea for thread rating was an extension of that conversation and could have been brought up in the same thread had it not been prematurely locked. Discouraging conversations like that reduces the number of ideas that hit the table and give you fewer options to choose from.
You never know what a shitty idea will develop into. While I know the discussions that occur in this forum are brainstorming par se, however I encourage people involved in moderating this section to refer to rules 1 thru 5 in this article about effective brainstorming principles: http://www.brainstorming.co.uk/tutorials/brainstormingprinciples.html
JustBusiness17
New Member
Re: Unresolved Locked Threads in the Issues & Suggestions Fo
I just wanted to point out that if the volunteer aspect of the community is going to inhibit innovation, perhaps you should consider seeking a revenue stream to remove this hurdle. Right wingers would argue that profit incentives are the only way to achieve progress, although I would beg to differ. But perhaps thats a discussion for another time.AndromedasWake said:
CosmicSpork
New Member
Re: Unresolved Locked Threads in the Issues & Suggestions Fo
I've amended the forum rules for this forum to allow a bit more flexibility in the discussion of suggestions. However, administrator decisions can still override these regardless of what conclusion users come to, this is most likely going to be because although an idea may have merit and everyone agrees it's a good idea, it simply isn't feasible for one reason or another.
I've amended the forum rules for this forum to allow a bit more flexibility in the discussion of suggestions. However, administrator decisions can still override these regardless of what conclusion users come to, this is most likely going to be because although an idea may have merit and everyone agrees it's a good idea, it simply isn't feasible for one reason or another.
Re: Unresolved Locked Threads in the Issues & Suggestions Fo
I was being flippant, I don't see that anything other than the current management structure is appropriate for an internet forum, particularly one that is run not for profit by people giving of their spare time. If I deem it necessary to lock a thread I will do so, I may or may not choose to explain myself (generally I will).
I was being flippant, I don't see that anything other than the current management structure is appropriate for an internet forum, particularly one that is run not for profit by people giving of their spare time. If I deem it necessary to lock a thread I will do so, I may or may not choose to explain myself (generally I will).
JustBusiness17
New Member
Re: Unresolved Locked Threads in the Issues & Suggestions Fo
Workload seems to be a re-occuring concern in any discourse I've had regarding the management of LoR and shouldn't be ignored. Beyond designing 2 forum layouts, experimenting with administrative controls, and researching forum management on TAZ, I'm not 100% sure what's involved in actually maintaining an active community. Some insights would help, but I don't think what I'm proposing requires that much additional effort to implement considering the benefits its likely to produce. There are 13 members with moderation privileges plus an entire community capable of easily reporting new flame wars as the ignite. In my personal opinion, I believe integrity is a critical attribute for any individual or organization. Seriously striving to become what you say you are (or want to become) is a measure of integrity, and how much value can you place on a high rank in that department?
So I'm curious, from your perspective, how much extra effort (quantifiable is possible) do you think my suggestions will add to each member at different levels of the community? Also, how would you describe the cost/benefit analysis of efforts to align with your vision to benefits of aligning with it?
(Note: I'm noticing some rather one sided opposition to nearly everything that I say. I tend to mistake that type of discussion as biased, but I don't always expect people to openly evaluate the pro's and con's/validity or my ideas. It would be nice though
)
This goes against Kaizen Business Philosophy, but static management can have its advantages as well, I guess. In my own opinion, aligning reality with an organizational vision, values, etc is more of an ongoing process than it is a destination and I've already listed some of my observed discrepancies between the those within LoR. Perhaps this is where all the confusion comes from so feel free to explain where I'm mistaken. If I'm not mistaken, it seems like a more open flow of information and increased transparency (eg: providing explanations) would would suit AW's stated ideals more appropriately:Squawk said:
AndromedasWake said:
AndromedasWake said:
Workload seems to be a re-occuring concern in any discourse I've had regarding the management of LoR and shouldn't be ignored. Beyond designing 2 forum layouts, experimenting with administrative controls, and researching forum management on TAZ, I'm not 100% sure what's involved in actually maintaining an active community. Some insights would help, but I don't think what I'm proposing requires that much additional effort to implement considering the benefits its likely to produce. There are 13 members with moderation privileges plus an entire community capable of easily reporting new flame wars as the ignite. In my personal opinion, I believe integrity is a critical attribute for any individual or organization. Seriously striving to become what you say you are (or want to become) is a measure of integrity, and how much value can you place on a high rank in that department?
So I'm curious, from your perspective, how much extra effort (quantifiable is possible) do you think my suggestions will add to each member at different levels of the community? Also, how would you describe the cost/benefit analysis of efforts to align with your vision to benefits of aligning with it?
(Note: I'm noticing some rather one sided opposition to nearly everything that I say. I tend to mistake that type of discussion as biased, but I don't always expect people to openly evaluate the pro's and con's/validity or my ideas. It would be nice though
)borrofburi
New Member
Re: Unresolved Locked Threads in the Issues & Suggestions Fo
Reading this thread, I see one user convinced LoR needs to change, and no one else agreeing...
Reading this thread, I see one user convinced LoR needs to change, and no one else agreeing...
AndromedasWake
New Member
Re: Unresolved Locked Threads in the Issues & Suggestions Fo
Sorry, I do not speak or think in terms of any business philosophy. We used to have a moderator here who insisted we develop the site into a business, and it never went anywhere, because I don't personally have the motivation or desire to fix what ain't broke.
Re: Workload, a possible solution might be to have each suggestion thread lock automatically after one week (if it is not resolved beforehand) and flagged for review by the mod team. The OP must update the first post with the finalised suggestion and it will be either implemented or dismissed with an explanation edited into the OP.
In any event, I do agree that the threads should be locked once the suggestion has been reviewed. One week is enough time for the community to decide what they think is interesting and worth refining, isn't it?
Might require more or less time. Thoughts?
Sorry, I do not speak or think in terms of any business philosophy. We used to have a moderator here who insisted we develop the site into a business, and it never went anywhere, because I don't personally have the motivation or desire to fix what ain't broke.
Re: Workload, a possible solution might be to have each suggestion thread lock automatically after one week (if it is not resolved beforehand) and flagged for review by the mod team. The OP must update the first post with the finalised suggestion and it will be either implemented or dismissed with an explanation edited into the OP.
In any event, I do agree that the threads should be locked once the suggestion has been reviewed. One week is enough time for the community to decide what they think is interesting and worth refining, isn't it?
Might require more or less time. Thoughts?
JustBusiness17
New Member
Re: Unresolved Locked Threads in the Issues & Suggestions Fo
Some people push the whole "run it like a business" angle a little too hard (me being one of them), but there are degrees of intensity. I'm not sure how that old mod pushed it on you or what type of background he was using to justify his position, but the "if it ain't broke" position is a rather extremist ideology, wouldn't you agree? I personally consider it a meme in the strictest sense of the word.
Fixing "broken" things is only a small percentage of what business is all about, but that's getting away from the heart of the cliche. The truth of the matter is that people are constantly "fixing" things. Its the amount of "fixing" or type of "fixing" that people usually argue about. I seem to get in a lot of debates over suggestions to "fix" small things because people perceive them as big. An example here would be the whole mission/vision thing which is a simple concept that's easy to develop which subsequently makes management much easier, but it was viewed as a completely radical concept. Much of that had to do with my tact in presenting the idea (and hot tempered defense of it), but the cost/benefit is rather substantial in the long run... In the case of aligning the claims and actions of the management team so that they're actually congruent, it might be a bigger fix than normal depending on the direction you decide to go, but it's definitely important IMO. The easy fix is to just stop advertising it as an open source community and keep doing what you're doing...
This is getting mildly off-topic so let me wrap it up with this: Business knowledge is the knowledge that works best for running an organization efficiently. If my hobby was the stars, the first thing I'd do is learn a little bit about astronomy. Can people not learn some rather profound knowledge about the cosmos without actually becoming an astronomer? Some of the most interesting things about the universe are nothing more than simple concepts. The same goes for business. You don't need to break your back trying to learn about and implement business fundamentals... Using a couple key concepts might actually reduce some workload, but it depends on what we're talking about.
Business practices are intended to do one of two things: 1) Reduce costs (including man power) and 2) Improve product value. Which of those do you object to?
When you say:
"There are many factors as to why something may be dismissed. The thread will have been locked for good reason, and your thread should serve as a reminder to others that the suggestion has already been made and implemented or dismissed."
You're essentially inhibiting any possibility for an idea to grow...
Does this section really create so many problems that it needs to be muzzled?
Thats a fair admission, but it brings up the question, what philosophy are you using to run the site? I'm not trying to patronize you, just trying to understand your perspective...AndromedasWake said:Sorry, I do not speak or think in terms of any business philosophy. We used to have a moderator here who insisted we develop the site into a business, and it never went anywhere, because I don't personally have the motivation or desire to fix what ain't broke.
Some people push the whole "run it like a business" angle a little too hard (me being one of them), but there are degrees of intensity. I'm not sure how that old mod pushed it on you or what type of background he was using to justify his position, but the "if it ain't broke" position is a rather extremist ideology, wouldn't you agree? I personally consider it a meme in the strictest sense of the word.
Fixing "broken" things is only a small percentage of what business is all about, but that's getting away from the heart of the cliche. The truth of the matter is that people are constantly "fixing" things. Its the amount of "fixing" or type of "fixing" that people usually argue about. I seem to get in a lot of debates over suggestions to "fix" small things because people perceive them as big. An example here would be the whole mission/vision thing which is a simple concept that's easy to develop which subsequently makes management much easier, but it was viewed as a completely radical concept. Much of that had to do with my tact in presenting the idea (and hot tempered defense of it), but the cost/benefit is rather substantial in the long run... In the case of aligning the claims and actions of the management team so that they're actually congruent, it might be a bigger fix than normal depending on the direction you decide to go, but it's definitely important IMO. The easy fix is to just stop advertising it as an open source community and keep doing what you're doing...
This is getting mildly off-topic so let me wrap it up with this: Business knowledge is the knowledge that works best for running an organization efficiently. If my hobby was the stars, the first thing I'd do is learn a little bit about astronomy. Can people not learn some rather profound knowledge about the cosmos without actually becoming an astronomer? Some of the most interesting things about the universe are nothing more than simple concepts. The same goes for business. You don't need to break your back trying to learn about and implement business fundamentals... Using a couple key concepts might actually reduce some workload, but it depends on what we're talking about.
Business practices are intended to do one of two things: 1) Reduce costs (including man power) and 2) Improve product value. Which of those do you object to?
Editing an explanation into the OP is a great idea (more so for long drawn out discussions), but automatically locking threads seems a little drastic - especially considering my next point.
I guess this is where we disagree. I think locking threads is counterproductive to developing ideas. It's impossible to say how a really shitty will eventually develop. More importantly, there's no telling when it will develop. If you lock a conversation, you're pretty much doing your best to ensure it will never develop.... What happens if someone posts a fantastic idea disguised as a really shitty one based on how it was presented and all it takes is a better explanation from a different person?
When you say:
"There are many factors as to why something may be dismissed. The thread will have been locked for good reason, and your thread should serve as a reminder to others that the suggestion has already been made and implemented or dismissed."
You're essentially inhibiting any possibility for an idea to grow...
Does this section really create so many problems that it needs to be muzzled?
I think more time and a constructive approach to suggestions is the best policy. Low hanging fruit are easy to pick, but I prefer to go after ideas that are well nourished through cultivation.