Turkey

[Leçi]

First of all, I have close connections with turks, my online gf lives in turkey and I went to turkey on my own to meet her and her family, I spend 2 weeks there living like a turk, it's not alot but I learned alot of how life is in turkey, now I study turkish weekly. My experience in turkey was amazing, Istanbul is a wonderful place, I live in a small town in belgium so the contrast was huge. I loved being in Turkey.

Turkey would've been a perfect country, a mix between culture and progress but it's all ruined by some things.

For example, what's the deal with censorship there, today they banned sites containing the words (forbid, anal, breath, etc)
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=turkey-forbids-8216forbidden8217-from-internet-domain-names-2011-04-28
For a long while they banned youtube because there were some anti-ataturk videos on it. I agree Ataturk was important for turkey, he's the reason of all the progress but not accepting any criticism about him is just stupid. Sure, alot of anti-ataturk videos might've been pure slander, not supported by any fact but that's the internet, a place where everyone can say something. By not accepting the slightest criticism I would start to find it suspicious, like they have something to hide.
The reason for the latest censorship is to protect the children...so what about the adults? They have to pay so their children can surf the web safely? Since when does the state need to come in to say what's good or bad for your own child. It's the parent's job to protect them from unwanted sites.

Another problem according to me is the people. I've met alot of turks, in turkey, here and online, they're nice people but alot of them are patriots with a strong sense of morals. Alot of times there's a shooting in Belgium it's because a turk shot his gf or the new bf of his ex gf. And shootings are quite rare here since there's a tougher weapon law so every time there's a shooting somewhere it's in the news. Alot of turks, especially the ones that live in Turkey, love Turkey to the extreme, pure patriotism. Now I don't know about you guys but I really dislike any train of thought that prohibits a person of accepting criticism about something.

Turkey could be a great country, it has alot of potential, it could become part of the EU if they wanted. I want to love Turkey because the time I spend there was the best experience I've ever had, but the way it is now dissapoints me. Instead of going the way of democracy and freedom it's going the way of censorship and radicalism and I don't want that to happen.

But what causes all this? Why is this country heading backwards?

 

[RigelKentaurusA]

But what causes all this? Why is this country heading backwards?

Those of us in the US have been asking the same about our place.

Conservatism? (Christian in the case of the US, Islamic in the case of Turkey?)

^-- uninformed guess.

 

[MRaverz]

Is Turkey the country where the only thing stopping it from tearing itself in two is military intervention, or is that my ignorance of international politics showing?

 

[Case]

Is Turkey the country where the only thing stopping it from tearing itself in two is military intervention, or is that my ignorance of international politics showing?

Turkey is the country whose track record is as follows: 1) Armenian genocide 2) Kurdish genocide 3) invasion of Cyprus 4) some more Kurdish genocide, followed by segregation. Turkey has been armed and funded by the US in the 1980s because of its strategically important location. Hence, the US partly funded the more recent genocidal actions of Turkey. Its human rights violations make for a pretty long list, but they don't really care, as they really really want in on that whole EU thing. Luckily our politicians haven't yet lost all sanity.

 

[Leçi]

Is Turkey the country where the only thing stopping it from tearing itself in two is military intervention, or is that my ignorance of international politics showing?

Turkey is the country whose track record is as follows: 1) Armenian genocide 2) Kurdish genocide 3) invasion of Cyprus 4) some more Kurdish genocide, followed by segregation. Turkey has been armed and funded by the US in the 1980s because of its strategically important location. Hence, the US partly funded the more recent genocidal actions of Turkey. Its human rights violations make for a pretty long list, but they don't really care, as they really really want in on that whole EU thing. Luckily our politicians haven't yet lost all sanity.

I bet our politicians don't accept turkey to the EU because too many people in Europe would protest. Turkey is a good strategic country, connecting the "christian" europe to the middle east so our politicians wouldn't be bothered by some human rights problems according to me.

I don't get it though, Turkey could be the most succesful Islamic country if they were able to behave properly but instead they're even worse patriots than americans.

 

[Anachronous Rex]

Turkey is the country whose track record is as follows: 1) Armenian genocide 2) Kurdish genocide 3) invasion of Cyprus 4) some more Kurdish genocide, followed by segregation.

I scarcely believe I'm saying this but, in Turkey's defense:

Turkey's claims on Cyprus are not wholly illegitimate. After the First World War a whole series of very unfair treaties were level at Turkey, and the international community (by which I basically mean the European community) has been so dismissive of the nation's grievances that they were never going to get it back diplomatically. The invasion was a stupid, but understandable, reaction to a lot of frustration.

The 'Kurdish genocide,' if we're really going to call it that, has been a much nicer genocide then most I am familiar with. Better to call this what it is: sustained harassment, orchestrated by the government, for the purpose of putting the hammer down on any sort of independence movement.

And the Armenian genocide happened back when the nation was referred to as the Ottoman Empire. Not to diminish the horror of it or anything, but it's reliance to the modern nation is dubious.


I only do this because I rarely see this type of criticism directed towards the action of other nations in the 20th Century. And maybe it's just because the Turks aren't generally very apologetic about it... but then, neither are the Japanese or many of us Americans (the others make up for it by being too apologetic.) I sometimes wonder if people are just determined not to like the Turks.

 

[Welshidiot]

I only do this because I rarely see this type of criticism directed towards the action of other nations in the 20th Century. And maybe it's just because the Turks aren't generally very apologetic about it... but then, neither are the Japanese or many of us Americans (the others make up for it by being too apologetic.) I sometimes wonder if people are just determined not to like the Turks...

As far as Europe goes I think the anti-Turkish feeling is rooted in racism, namely anti-Arabic (or in Turkey's case Arab-ish) racism.
Typically when I hear common or garden British oafs slagging off the Turks, they don't mention Kurds, or Armenians, or Cyprus,.....they talk about the colour of Turkish people's skin, and the way they "talk funny". In fact I'd be very surprised if they could tell the difference between Turks, Kurds, Armenians, and Cypriots unless they were labelled.

 

[Giliell]

Well, there are some definete problems with "Turkey".
I will make a nasty summary: The trouble with Turkey is that they've been pampered during the cold war due to their wonderful geographic location.
The surpression of the Kurds (violent, with murder and torture) has been simply ignored. The west just took the Kurdish refugees and didn't lose a word about it. Same problem we're having with all those nasty tyrranies around our enlightened island.

Too much power for the military. They put down their foot against Erdogan's worst ideas, but still.

Why are they moving backwards? Clash of Cultures, our wonderful self-fullfilling prophecy.

 

[Case]

Turkey is the country whose track record is as follows: 1) Armenian genocide 2) Kurdish genocide 3) invasion of Cyprus 4) some more Kurdish genocide, followed by segregation.

I scarcely believe I'm saying this but, in Turkey's defense:

Turkey's claims on Cyprus are not wholly illegitimate. After the First World War a whole series of very unfair treaties were level at Turkey, and the international community (by which I basically mean the European community) has been so dismissive of the nation's grievances that they were never going to get it back diplomatically. The invasion was a stupid, but understandable, reaction to a lot of frustration.

The 'Kurdish genocide,' if we're really going to call it that, has been a much nicer genocide then most I am familiar with. Better to call this what it is: sustained harassment, orchestrated by the government, for the purpose of putting the hammer down on any sort of independence movement.

And the Armenian genocide happened back when the nation was referred to as the Ottoman Empire. Not to diminish the horror of it or anything, but it's reliance to the modern nation is dubious.


I only do this because I rarely see this type of criticism directed towards the action of other nations in the 20th Century. And maybe it's just because the Turks aren't generally very apologetic about it... but then, neither are the Japanese or many of us Americans (the others make up for it by being too apologetic.) I sometimes wonder if people are just determined not to like the Turks.

1) I wouldn't go so far as to call military 'intervention' resulting in (among other things) hundred(s of) thousands of refugees and tens of thousands of dispossessed a mere "reaction to a lot of frustration".
2) Exactly what conditions need to be met for you to call it genocide? For me, the Genocide convention is fairly sufficient.
3) Turkey's officials still deny that the Armenian genocide was a genocide. That's holocaust denial in my book (holocaust as in holocaust, not The Holocaust, there have been many).
4) "the others make up for it by being too apologetic" bullshit, and you know it.
5) "I sometimes wonder if people are just determined not to like the Turks" - are you insinuating anything? Apart from the fact that my summary says nothing about "The Turks", none of your points actually refutes mine.

By your logic, Germany couldn't be held accountable (i.e. pay reparations) for (the relevant events leading to and during) WW2 either, as it wasn't "Germany" but the "German Reich" which waged war. Come on.

 

[Anachronous Rex]

I scarcely believe I'm saying this but, in Turkey's defense:

Turkey's claims on Cyprus are not wholly illegitimate. After the First World War a whole series of very unfair treaties were level at Turkey, and the international community (by which I basically mean the European community) has been so dismissive of the nation's grievances that they were never going to get it back diplomatically. The invasion was a stupid, but understandable, reaction to a lot of frustration.

The 'Kurdish genocide,' if we're really going to call it that, has been a much nicer genocide then most I am familiar with. Better to call this what it is: sustained harassment, orchestrated by the government, for the purpose of putting the hammer down on any sort of independence movement.

And the Armenian genocide happened back when the nation was referred to as the Ottoman Empire. Not to diminish the horror of it or anything, but it's reliance to the modern nation is dubious.


I only do this because I rarely see this type of criticism directed towards the action of other nations in the 20th Century. And maybe it's just because the Turks aren't generally very apologetic about it... but then, neither are the Japanese or many of us Americans (the others make up for it by being too apologetic.) I sometimes wonder if people are just determined not to like the Turks.

1) I wouldn't go so far as to call military 'intervention' resulting in (among other things) hundred(s of) thousands of refugees and tens of thousands of dispossessed a mere "reaction to a lot of frustration".

And why not? Are disastrous military operations not allowed to have silly reasons? In my experience they usually do. In this case, we're dealing with frustration over the combination of having lost the last vestiges of Empire within living memory, coupled with lacking territory they consider to be 'home ground.' Given that their diplomatic overtures we're basically being ignored, anyone could have seen this coming. And then with that Greek coup...

2) Exactly what conditions need to be met for you to call it genocide? For me, the Genocide convention is fairly sufficient.

Alright, demonstrate that it has been met. I don't care for Turkey's treatment of the Kurdish people, but my understanding is that their aim is to preserve their remaining territory via intimidation, rather than extermination.

3) Turkey's officials still deny that the Armenian genocide was a genocide. That's holocaust denial in my book (holocaust as in holocaust, not The Holocaust, there have been many).

I know, and it really irritates me that they do this. Just like it irritates me how the Japanese routinely pretend they did nothing wrong in the WWII. My point here is not that the Turks are laudable, it's that I don't see these standards being applied elsewhere.

4) "the others make up for it by being too apologetic" bullshit, and you know it.

In the US? No, I'm serious. There are those who pretend that the US has never done anything wrong, and then their are those who think that nobody who doesn't like us can possibly be in the wrong. It's slightly off topic, but I am frankly fed up with leftist masochists who think that everything wrong with the world is a result of US foreign policy.

5) "I sometimes wonder if people are just determined not to like the Turks" - are you insinuating anything? Apart from the fact that my summary says nothing about "The Turks", none of your points actually refutes mine.

My statements weren't intended to refute yours. I don't approve of many of Turkey's political actions (including, but not limited to, those you listed above.) I just resent the synopsis. I dare say you could compile a similar list using the record of any politically reliant nation in the 20th Century, and it would look scarcely better. I, for one, don't hold too much against France their adventures in Algiers, and I don't particularly despise Turkey for its in Cyprus. Their current maneuverings on the subject are, however, another matter.

I do strenuously apologize if it seemed I was insinuating racism on your part, I use Turkey/the Turks too interchangeably sometimes. It comes from reading a lot of old History books on the Ottoman Empire.

By your logic, Germany couldn't be held accountable (i.e. pay reparations) for (the relevant events leading to and during) WW2 either, as it wasn't "Germany" but the "German Reich" which waged war. Come on.

Would you judge Modern Germany by the actions of the Third Reich? I'd be against that to.

 

[Doc.]

I don't know, pretty much all the Turks I've met didn't leave a very good impression.

 

[Memeticemetic]

I'm still kinda torqued about the whole Istanbul thing. I had a date in Constantinople once, but she was totally waiting in Istanbul. Guess it's none of my business though.

 

[Bearcules]

I'm still kinda torqued about the whole Istanbul thing. I had a date in Constantinople once, but she was totally waiting in Istanbul. Guess it's none of my business though.

:ugeek: I see what you did there.

 

[Leçi]

So yesterday the military chiefs in Turkey resigned due to constant conflicts with the AK party of the current PM. The military is secular and has always made sure the religious parties didn't get too much power, because of that multiple coups have happend. But Erdogan has been changing the constitution so much, giving less power to the army and more power to him iirc. The AK party is a islamic conservative party so it's quite bad news that there isn't any power anymore guarding the secular system of Turkey. I fear Turkey will become more conservative and more religious which is bad news.

I have been criticizing turkey on youtube a few months ago in a respective way, or so I thought. Because a month ago I recieved a message from a belgian turk: "You keep on barkind you fucking dog, only behind your keyboard you can keep spreding your hatred of TURKS, you loser.
In real life you don't even dare to look at a TURK, you piece of incest.
But barking dogs don't bite, so you keep on barking, you filthy motherfucker, keep on barking..."

So I replied with:
"I don't know what comment of me you read but can you point me out where I said I hated turks? As far as I know I just criticised Turks. If you can't even accept some criticism, congratulations. Instead of cursing at me you could've tried to refute my criticism by pointing out where I was wrong. Oh and in real life I make out with my turkish gf."

So that lead to more messages of him cursing at me and me trying to calm him down, after a while I just said "or you will behave or we will stop this discussion" and he hasn't send me any message since then. I guess discussing in a normal way really was too difficult for him.

 

[kenandkids]

I've known quite a few Turks and never really had a problem with any of them. A few were quite vain in my opinion, but no more than most " us 'Muricens r da best" people. I also started getting to know them when working on campaigns to increase awareness of the region, from the Armenian genocide to the the kurdish slaughters so maybe I just met the good ones?

 

[Leçi]

I've known quite a few Turks and never really had a problem with any of them. A few were quite vain in my opinion, but no more than most " us 'Muricens r da best" people. I also started getting to know them when working on campaigns to increase awareness of the region, from the Armenian genocide to the the kurdish slaughters so maybe I just met the good ones?

Well if I would compare turkey with any western country it would be the US. Patriotic, conservative and religious with a government that likes to censor things. Like I said my gf is turkish and she's somewhat normal-ish abit. Her mother is modern and her cousin too. I haven't met any other family members of her besides her father who was conservative. People voted for the AK party the last time while being fully aware of the intentions of Erdogan so I guess most turks are more conservative than western people.

 

[whatsinitforme]

Haha, I thought this post was about Thanksgiving, guess we know what's on my mind.

 

[exhaledeeply]

My husband is a Turk, and I once was in Turkey for on month. I stayed in Istanbul, Izmir, and Cesme. I can tell you, Turks are alright people.

I mean, you can sit behind your keyboard and judge them, I won't take that away from you. I'm just saying, they're good people. And yes, they are very patriotic; but not stupidly so-- at least not the ones that I have met. Most of the Turks I have met (and believe me, I've met a lot-- not enough to represent the entire population, of course, but enough) wish for the government to leave the conservative side. They don't cover their hair, and they are interested in international politics as well. They aren't close-minded people. Sure, some of them are. Just like my father thinks that we are in the middle east because Americans are good people who want to do a good thing. Uh-huh.

And Ataturk is more of a symbol for them. He symbolized the westernization of Turkey-- liberation of women, embracing Turkey as its own country, trying to do away with the arabic prayer and attempting to replace it with one in Turkish-- speaking out against the abuse of animals. He is that symbol. And people love him for that symbol.

They are developing, and they have a loonnnnnng way to go. They aren't exactly a perfect country, not in a long shot. About the censoring-- they don't give a crap about some of those censors. In Turkey, if a foreign movie shows someone smoking, they cover it with a flower. Nobody really feels like this is a violation of their rights, at least not yet, therefore it's still there. They are mostly concerned with bread, football, their families, soap operas, and making sure an extreme conservative does not have political power. At least, from what I've seen. Like I said, this does not represent the nation... Just saying.

Also, EU won't take them. They are WAY to populated.

Anyway, my two cennnnts.

 

[Leçi]

The family I hung out with were good people too but the dad was conservative, the mother was allright though. Also, Erdogan is quite conservative and most people keep voting for him. The army who see themself as the protectors of Kemalism was planning on overthrowing the government but Erdogan found out or something and arrested the ones responsible. It has happend before a conservative party gets power in turkey and the army overthrows it but it seems it won't happen this time. I'm not sure what the future will be of Turkey but I don't trust Erdogan that much.