Trans Athletes and Sports

[Akamia]

So... For those not in the know, there is an ongoing battle, at the very least in the United States where I happen to live if not elsewhere, for trans athletes to compete in sports as the gender they identify with. The media here is rather focused on trans women and women's sports, and I do not know if this is the case for trans men and men's sports as well.

I would like to see data in both instances. Is there any actual advantage/disadvantage that trans athletes, be they men, women, or anything in between, face in the categories they wish to compete in? How are they faring in comparison to their cis counterparts in the locations and events where they are already allowed to compete in their desired categories?

I would Google this myself, but Google being Google, the algorithm is proving to be rather... cryptic for me. I don't know where to look for this information.

 

[*SD*]

I've watched countless debates on this topic, I'll see what I can dig up for you. Even if it's not really "debates" you're looking for, research etc is often cited in them so should be at least somewhat helpful.

 

[BrachioPEP]

Trans athletes.

I am assuming here that the issue of whether trans people exist or are self-justied or have rights and are not satanists or anything is a given.

Please note/see that this is a longer post. No need to inform me or others and feel free at this stage to leave it alone. I am more raising some points of potential interest and anyone wanting to unecessarily or pointlessly knock this, I'd rather you ignored it or I remove the post. There is no monopoly on words here or trying to inform, share/address related or entertain. I am sorry I have not specifically provided any source material.



Driving along my road, I passed an elderly man. He was wholly independent and carrying a carrier bag of shopping, but he was bend so far forward, that his head was below the height of his back. It saddened me, but it raised a point of relevance here. Suppose he were in need of measuring – it could be a medical or health reason, a criminal reason at a police station etc. I had an image of a group of experts sitting around a room, scratching their heads, looking in at him in the middle, standing there, confused, as they tried to work out and agree on how or where to measure him. Sure, he is not in the majority of people, but he is a person and thereby worthy of full inclusion. So does he get measured to the highest point of his body, his middle back? Or a direct line to the tip of his skull, (which is facing towards the ground and level with his belly button)? Or curve the tape measure round his back and back down to his head? A funny situation no doubt, but this is the meat of the discussion. If we make an exception for him, do we also do so for leg amputees, as it also does not reflect the true ‘height’? Constitutions already have laws that fill volumes on rows of book shelves and ever grow. If we were to cater for every situation, we would fill all the libraries in the world. And no supermarket would suffice. The shelves are too low for some, too high for others, not blind sensitive etc. Cars can’t legally hold a person over 280 kg and so on.

In a nutshell, fairness and equality can be incompatible unless there were soi many categories that only YOU would fit into any.

The human body, genetics, illness, accident, the mind and other aspects within ourselves are all very different to varying degrees. That is life and the cards we are dealt. Society has long since decided to bring the best of these, discarding the many (vast majority) less fortunate, and let the super-race compete and be adorated. Hitler may have taken this a bit further than the rest of us, but we are still left with selective things like sport, where only the (usually superior or genetically accepted) optimal people compete for glory.

More recently, we have brought in paralympics where disability is an added factor in levelling competition.

Now, we have another/the latest ‘new’ group of people. I say new, not because they are new, but because their ‘case’ is only now coming to the surface.

Here’s one person’s ignorant, not well thought out, unresearched view/understanding and I can’t wait to be put right, challenged, be shown wrong by the increasing amount of data and watch myself and society change as we grow more accustomed and accepting of this latest and ever more normalised area of controversy, as we have dsone/seen with slavery, sexism, racism and sexuality.

I think a ‘one or no-legged’ person who beats a two-legged person (due to so-called artificial equalizing limbs) OR the two-legged person who beats the ‘one or no-legged’ because they have a natural advantage/disadvantage in a running race is probably unfair. The playing field (and more fundamental issues) are weighted against one or the other. Such a ‘running race’ if ever justified, needs fundamentally new rules or categories, perhaps entirely other than sex based, as equality seems impossible to determine much, beyond the old black and white current methods and categories. Even in martial art sports, there are weight categories to differentiate the imperfections and variety of humanity on top of male and female. And with disability/para sports, it extends much further and could go on incrementally forever to create a wholly equal playing field, to such a degree that one person could never fit in a category, other than one containing only /her/his/itself.

If a three-legged person is born who outruns everyone, is that O.K.? Do we change the rules? Do we allow a third prosthetic for two-legged folk? Everyone is on the smooth spectrum of imperfection and sometimes, significant genetic or other events occur, giving them an (albeit natural but genetically odd) advantage.

There is an arm wrestler with such an advantage. His one wrist is twice as genetically muscled as anyone else, so he is better and has won a world title. Don’t tell me that I am focussed on exceptions. They are people, they matter equally and we need to decide on how and where we can all be given equal standing within feasible means and costs in society.

After the suppression of the acceptance of the fact that not every person is born or meant or destined or wants to be male or female (physically, emotionally, mentally or otherwise) and that we are only recently beginning to know, recognise or accept this, the facts find themselves caught up in a long established system that was far from on the spectrum. And thus the crux now.

When we started to categorize life, we knew of limited animals and plants. We now have ‘new(LY DISCOVERED’ kingdoms and domains and because we now know they exist, we changed the system to cater for them and found them an equal place amongst us.

With changes to rules or new materials, events like shot put, javelin and pole vault etc. records and athletes can increase outside of the athletes natural ability. That’s why I like pure events that do not or cannot change or be disputable. The vertical jump, high jump, long jump, running events in bare feet etc. are (or can) be seen as such.

Similarly in trans… anything. When one fundamentally changes or introduces something new, we have to evidentially ascertain its validity (not based on religion, belief, society, tradition, but evidence) and then decide what to do, if anything.

With steroids, surgery or anything else and the exact level to which an advantage is gained/lost, coupled with any natural ability, strength or size they may have had before or is gained since, the number of categories for equal competitiveness are too many. We could just put all humans together (irrespective of ANY factor) and claim the best in whatever and close the books. The result would clearly omit 99% of humans, and therein lies the problem. Finding enough categories to compare everyone equally in everything.

If disabled, brown, female, lower caste, old people have an equal right to compete on a level playing field, then so do all people. It is purely down to the interest (popularity) and costs as to whether it is introduced. Inner city London schools are just as legally able to compete in polo, but costs and popularity there prevents them. If we want to change that, we have to deal with the costs and a democratic view on what is popular or not (get out there and educate, motivate and inform people if it is deemed important or worthy).

To the point, I think the spectrum of both disability and sexuality and all related is so wide that there is no easy solution that isn’t still biased or discriminatory to those within each group, including trans people. But what is the alternative if we want to be a competitive species? We certainly need more data and time to establish any potential groupings for such competitiveness and in the meantime, use smaller, local start-up groups and events to hello see where the ground lies from which more clarity can be shown.

A British education delegation were visiting China on a comparative and fact-finding tour. In one school, a British head teacher (noting that there were no comparative alternatives there) asked ‘what about those children with special needs?’ An official looked confused at such un unknown category and a translator make it clearer. ‘Oh right. Yes, they have to work harder.’ Such was/is the stigma if you were unfortunate enough to have a less bright or disabled child who was not ‘bad enough’ to be institutionalised. The parents simply put the extra effort/hours/private tuition in. There is logic to this to a degree. Most kids in any typical class have similar IQs/ability and varying levels of interest or motivation. Rather than whinging or being lazy at every opportunity, it is better to just crack on and bring yourself or your child up to the expected or reasonable standard. That way, they have an advantage later. Maybe not quite so bright, but harder working as a result. In the West, many of us have gone the other way, believing that almost everyone is claiming to have X, Y or Z setback, condition or ADHD in order to gain an advantage. As an experienced teacher, I reject this notion, but support the idea of putting extra effort in to raise standards instead of putting great expectation and funding on society, where possible, as it makes for better people and mentality if applied to all aspects of life.

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

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Those can be a good starting point. I remember watching them years ago (when I had more time).

I thought Zinnia Jones covered this, but I cannot find it now.

Personally, I do not care about sports. Whoever governs the sporting body should be able to make up whatever rules they want. As long as they are not taking a cent of tax money, the governing body of whichever sport should have the last say.

 

[We are Borg]

Well if you have man that are transitioned to female and this happend a few times they set unrealistic records for woman. Its not a second here or there but much more.

 

[We are Borg]

https://www.youtube.com/c/TheQuartering/videos

Has some stuff about this on his channel, problem is that when you report this as channel you get complaints and they try to get you in trouble.

 

[Akamia]

https://www.youtube.com/c/TheQuartering/videos

Has some stuff about this on his channel, problem is that when you report this as channel you get complaints and they try to get you in trouble.

I would rather not sift through anything The Quartering is putting out. He's got a penchant for misogyny and a track record of complaining about any sort of female and queer representation in media.

​

Those can be a good starting point. I remember watching them years ago (when I had more time).

I thought Zinnia Jones covered this, but I cannot find it now.

Personally, I do not care about sports. Whoever governs the sporting body should be able to make up whatever rules they want. As long as they are not taking a cent of tax money, the governing body of whichever sport should have the last say.

Normally I do not care about sports either, but my mother has a perception I find questionable at best; that's what prompted me to look into it. I'm trying to approach this as a reasonable person.

I will watch these videos and see if I can dig any deeper from there. Thank you.

 

[We are Borg]

i agree The Quartering can make good video's but sometimes he goes to far with his opinions. But what i noticed with genders in sport with him that he is 99% right. You cant let men transitioned to women compete in sports of woman.

 

[Akamia]

I don't think you understand; I do not trust The Quartering as a source on any level, and I'm not going to go through his channel to look for what I want. If you have a more primary source, maybe something he happens to be citing somewhere, that's fine, but The Quartering himself is not trustworthy as far as I'm concerned.

To be honest, I'm not even sure Essence of Thought – brought up by HWIN – is trustworthy, but from the specific videos provided, I can at least look at their sources, as that's what I'm really after.

 

[Akamia]

I don't think you understand; I do not trust The Quartering as a source on any level, and I'm not going to go through his channel to look for what I want. If you have a more primary source, maybe something he happens to be citing somewhere, that's fine, but The Quartering himself is not trustworthy as far as I'm concerned.

To be honest, I'm not even sure Essence of Thought – brought up by HWIN – is trustworthy, but from the specific videos provided, I can at least look at their sources, as that's what I'm really after.

To elaborate further, seeing as my edit period has long passed:

I’m absolutely disinterested in what some talking head has to say about the subject, regardless of what faction(s) they align with. Linking to the Quartering, to me, is like linking to some creationist’s blog when the topic is about biology.

I don’t know that Essence of Thought is any more of a reliable source than the Quartering, but I suspect HWIN didn’t select those videos for the videos. The sources cited within their descriptions are what’s actually relevant here. I don’t much care what EoT has to say either, at least at this time. If you’d like to point to a specific, particularly well-cited Quartering video or two of your own, go ahead. I’m not going to dig into the channel myself. I find his content disreputable. I’d rather look at the science. I’d rather look at the data.

 

[BrachioPEP]

As I understand your post, (and if wrong, I apologise and feel free to ignore or correct) you are looking for evidence surrounding the equality or otherwise (and/or different range results) within specific transgender groups in competition. For example, where a competition or event exists within the category of a (perhaps fully) transgendered man to a woman.

Not all of this msay interest the poster/OP, but might interest others or raise discussion.

Given how statistically few there are, it might be hard to find unless (instead of competition) an appeal were made by a research group to study/compare physical ability between them, thus drawing them together perhaps from a wider area and even working remotely.

Currently, (due to such small groups of people) it almost seems like randomly picking a small number of random people from a country and comparing them. It would provide virtually no information of value. Like in 1960, doing the same with gay people. There’s just too few (that are open) to establish any information of value with the compare pool being so empty. Imagine in 1960 having a gay Olympics. The silent majority who are not ‘out’ and therefore will not be known about or competing would likely (unbeknown) hold the vast majority of the elite athletes.

It is right that we need to know more in order to determine fairness and at least starting some research now might help guide or establish categories for fairness, but the very nature of humans being in a physical spectrum, prejudicely favours those who excel in a competition which promote those attributes they have. No playing field in any sport is equal. People born with shorter legs or a slightly different physique will always miss out. Unless there are so many categories that only one person remains in each.

So if Mr Olympia (or a former world’s best athlete/Decathlete!) changes sex to a woman and wants to compete in something athletically physical a wimpy kid does the same, and wishes to compete, we have far too little information to learn anything from. We probably need hundreds or thousands, even as a starting point.

But assuming one accepts the (prejudiced) naturally gifted athletes (e.g. the Olympics and sport/athletics in general, which exclude everyone else less than physically perfect) but just want to add a couple of categories to the current male/female, I don’t see the point. We already divide sport by sex BECAUSE of the lesser natural physical ability (to make a sex based separation for equality. Then we subdivide in some sports like boxing, to weight (but not age?!). Where do we stop? Fairness and equality can’t financially (or in the public number of people interested) extend indefinitely.

One solution could be a one size fits all range of competitions and then (like the Pentathlon sand Decathlon) assess different factors and award points.

Perhaps design competitive events around the groups themselves and provide justification. Why just sex, why not weight or physical size (like boxing) or genetic capacity or age or other restrictive or advantageous factors (three legs, double musculature in the arms etc.) or differentiation between leg and body length?

I cannot see a solution that is fair, even as it stands. Which means compromise. Popularity is a big factor, but that brings in bear baiting, topless or upskirt images by dwarfs of women in some newspapers and throwing people to lions for fun. We perhaps need a level of standards. We can never equate or compete like for like.

But for those who are biased or do not equate or compare the transgender situation with other groups like disability or age or other different factors and just wish to only focus and incorporate trans people into sport (which is not my view). Create interest and Websites and do trial events across the country/world in a range of categories, both ones that people like or think is fair, and not so. Then do the stats and compare. The more data and factors you include and compare, the better and more informative and accurate the results. This should provide some data. After due media promotion, science may then want to have a look, whilst all the time, more individuals are coming forth.

The world or your country doesn’t owe you any rights or equality in such diverse areas as sport. We quite often have to fight for them. Some sports are just not popular in some countries, so won’t get government funding. Some disability sports are more popular than others (or even non disability sports) and get a lot of national support and attention. That’s the beauty of variety and choice. Sadly, we have to fight or find, democratically and with ingenuity, more interest, or we have to just put on our own events, like the local village live blind basket weaving champioinships.

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings.

@Akamia , you might find this, and the embedded news stories - particularly the "cannot co-exist" one - of interest.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

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[Mythtaken]

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I don't find Essence of Thought a credible source, based on a number of other videos I've seen that displayed clear bias and flawed or incorrect arguments. Rationality Rules, however, has always done his best to fully explore all sides of any issue and to reach conclusions based on the evidence. In this case I was disappointed when he posted another video, essentially retracting his initial argument, after being bombarded with hate and threats from the LGBTQ+ community for the original video.

There are studies and rules about hormone levels and muscle mass that try to fit trans athletes into the right competitive categories. Sometimes it seems to work out, but often it doesn't. I think in many cases, trans women especially, seem have an unfair advantage in most sports that involve strength/endurance. I also don't have a problem saying those athletes shouldn't be allowed to compete with sis female athletes.

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

I don't find Essence of Thought a credible source

Good. What do you have to say about the sources they provided? The thing I like the best about Essence of Thought is they provide citations during the video. Their videos are like watching a paper written with endnotes. I honestly wish more YouTubers did this same thing (or something similar) in their videos. This thread is supposed to be about providing data about this subject, after all.

There are studies and rules about hormone levels and muscle mass that try to fit trans athletes into the right competitive categories. Sometimes it seems to work out, but often it doesn't.

The last video I posted provides resources about this.

I also don't have a problem saying those athletes shouldn't be allowed to compete with sis female athletes.

Again, the governing body of the sporting organization should get the last say about this, as long as they are not taking a cent of government money.

 

[Mythtaken]

Again, the governing body of the sporting organization should get the last say about this, as long as they are not taking a cent of government money.

I'm not sure what taking government money has to do with the decision, but I do have concerns about the sporting organization.

I don't like the term, but we do have a problem these days with "woke" thinking. We're all aware of those who attempt to use it as a weapon against any number of marginalized groups. However, we have also become fearful of not being seen as completely inclusive or supportive of those groups, sometimes to the point of bias. This is my concern with leaving it to the board of a sporting organization to make an important decision like this. At the same time, there's no good reason to not include trans athletes as competitors, providing there there checks and balances in place to ensure fairness.

Ultimately, I think the decision to allow any trans athlete to compete in their chosen sport with sis competitors should be based on specific testing, rather than relying on a blanket policy (even a science based one), I know the idea of testing trans athletes is controversial, but I don't see any other way of ensuring fairness, just as we do with sis athletes. If testing shows there is an advantage, then that athlete should not compete.

The only other fair way to do it is to throw out all the barriers, allow all athletes to compete in any event, and find new ways of scoring and determining whom has won a particular event.

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

I'm not sure what taking government money has to do with the decision,

In the US, at least, taking government money can trigger other laws, such as Title IX.

but I do have concerns about the sporting organization.

Who else would it be up to? I mean, the governing bodies of the sporting organizations are already coming up with the rules for the game, the equipment they can and cannot use, the number of times someone can play in a given week/month/year, and what types of drugs are and are not allowed to be taken (to name a few). Many sports, such as wrestling, already have weight classes and other criteria that break people into what they think are fair exhibitions. A sporting organization could figure out something appropriate for trans and cis people to compete. Beyond that, what works in a sport like baseball will not work for a sport like cross country, so lumping all sports into one government-run body seems like a giant waste of money and time.

 

[Mythtaken]

That's a good question, for which I have no answer. Yes the sporting organization should be able to make the correct determinations, but as I said, those organizations are not immune from political bias (both large and small P politics.) In the US, for example, it may well become illegal for those organizations to even consider allowing trans athletes to compete, given the direction of the political climate. On the other side, as I said earlier, fear of social repercussions to be all inclusive may influence some sporting bodies to allow trans athletes into competitions where they have a clear advantage.

So, yes, the sporting organizations should establish the policies for ensuring fair competition. However, I think it might be better to have third party testing when it comes to enforcing the policies. I like to think as time goes on and transgender athletes become less sensational, we will have established simple and fair methods of integrating all athletes into competitive groupings.

 

[Led Zeppelin]

I would like to see data in both instances. Is there any actual advantage/disadvantage that trans athletes, be they men, women, or anything in between, face in the categories they wish to compete in? How are they faring in comparison to their cis counterparts in the locations and events where they are already allowed to compete in their desired categories?

The point of sports is that its fun to watch people have fun compete against each other. Not to prove that no one has an advantage and that everyone is the same. Today, most men still desire real women and most women desire real men. This is the real reason why people don't like to be forced into the idea that a man who has fake boobs and takes hormones is the same as a woman. And visa versa.

This will change though. So don't worry. Humans are hackable. Get a bunch of people in room together and a good salesman can make them believe almost anything. The more they turn away from God, the more hackable they are.

 

[*SD*]

Humans are hackable. Get a bunch of people in room together and a good salesman can make them believe almost anything. The more they turn away from God, the more hackable they are.

Do you have any idea how hilariously ironic this statement is?!