Today we will be discussing the evidence for a Loving, Logical, Lawgiver God. His name is Jesus.

mrbatman

New Member
Today we're talking about science. Science can only be done because of a loving logical Living lawgiver God who doesn't change over time.

This is why we have laws like laws of gravity, magnetism, thermodynamics that do not change over time. Because they come from a lawgiver that doesn't change over time.

Not to mention the laws of logic such as the law of identity, noncontradiction, and the law of the excluded middle. If these laws did not exist we would not be here to complain about it. If these laws ever changed over time we would not be here to complain about it.

Why do these laws exist where do they come from? What causes them not to change over time? And what's going to cause them to be here tomorrow? That is the question for my atheist and non-believing Friends.

This is my first post from Mr Batman of www.MrBatman.com
 

he_who_is_nobody

Active Member
Science can only be done because of a loving logical Living lawgiver God who doesn't change over time.
Non-sequitur.

Why do these laws exist where do they come from?
I do not know, and nor do you.

What causes them not to change over time?
I do not know, and nor do you.

And what's going to cause them to be here tomorrow?
I do not know, and nor do you.

The funny thing is, you believe in a being that can change reality at will, so why would you expect any of those things to be the same tomorrow?
 

BrachioPEP

Moderator
Hi Mr Batman.

So, because (for example) laws

therefore Jesus is Creator/Lord.


Point of note:

I don’t want to seem overly technical, awkward, philosophical, argumentative or doubtful of your claim, but there might be people here who may want you to fill in a slight gap between these parts. The terms, leap of faith/stretch of the imagination springs to mind, but I don’t want to underestimate what you are going to present or jump to the conclusion that the post is provocative.

It is a hard enough task to even infer a being/God, but you have jumped straight to Jesus. This seems a monumental task that no other theologian, philosopher or scientist has ever done yet to my knowledge. Are you coming from a cosmological and/or teleological perspective?

Question 1/how it comes across:

Are you here to learn, preach, educate or what? You seem to be starting at the end, pre-conceived conclusion and filling in data to try to support your view point.

A less provocative or more interactive/modest introduction might have been to ask where laws come from or if they can be explained or what the best explanations might be. But I am not you and you are free to present whatever you like. If there are responses, I hope you will respond to any criticisms and not move the goalposts or appeal to fallacies etc.

Question 2/3.

To determine if you are open minded, may I ask if you could be wrong and what could bring you to this position?

Question 4.

Will you actually be presenting any scientific evidence for Jesus, as the post implies?

Welcome!
 

*SD*

Administrator
Staff member
I should probably clarify in fairness, I invited MrBatman to the forum from Discord, he pops in one of my servers semi frequently and he also had a...err.... discussion? With @AronRa not so long ago, link below. I thought maybe it would be more productive if they discussed in writing, or MrBatman could discuss with other people here if Aron declines to respond. Here is the video of the last interaction I'm aware of -

 

We are Borg

Administrator
Staff member
I have been thinking for a few weeks about this IF there was a God how could you scientifically prove it. What ever test you come up with math or whatever you can’t because how a supernatural entity interacts. Aron said it best in a video that when God would save people like 911 no one would doubt God existed. But i would never trust that entity at all.

So how do you want to prove God scientifically?
 

BrachioPEP

Moderator
There are many ways in which most gods interact and are therefore testable by scientific means, but one has to demonstrate it is from such a specific source and not an unknown or other source.

Healing miracles for example. One can test the bewfore/after. They are two a penny, even huge ones (if many Christian’s testimony are to go by) but all seem to have escaped testing or evidence. But even if such a healing were to be confirmed (e.g. one of my lists of such healings that would be suitably acceptable – but see my caveats in other posts) replacement eyes, amputation, genetic or chromosomal abnormality like Down’s syndrome, dwarfism etc. And even if it were in response to prayer to a particular God, one still has to demonstrably link them and remove other explanations or an unknown factor. It is not easy to prove a God, ‘in this way’. But God could easily prove Her/Him/I/Their-self/selves in many ways. A word spelled out in the stars perhaps? ‘The day the earth stood still’? In fact I would be more accommodating than most might. Anything, no matter how simple, but enough to remove fraud and alternatives. Many have been deceived, so one has to be able to rule out deception or alternatives. I am open to a mutually agreeable test or method or evidence that may already be out there. Hopefully it would be on a suitable level for my understanding. I don’t want to be found baffled by bullshit.
 

AronRa

Administrator
Today we're talking about science. Science can only be done because of a loving logical Living lawgiver God who doesn't change over time.
Your very first sentence is already a lie.
Having a magic imaginary friend IMPEDES science.
Science is done exactly the opposite of faith.

This is why we have laws like laws of gravity, magnetism, thermodynamics that do not change over time. Because they come from a lawgiver that doesn't change over time.

Not to mention the laws of logic such as the law of identity, noncontradiction, and the law of the excluded middle. If these laws did not exist we would not be here to complain about it. If these laws ever changed over time we would not be here to complain about it.

Why do these laws exist where do they come from? What causes them not to change over time? And what's going to cause them to be here tomorrow? That is the question for my atheist and non-believing Friends.
In a universe where material energy and universal wave function are both eternal, then some of these properties could be emergent from the asymptote of time as the universe inflates, in the event of a singularity. In which case, they did not "come from" anywhere. What you're describing as laws are properties necessary to exist at all. If they did not exist, then neither would we, and neither could your god.

In order for a thing to exist, it must have properties.
If it doesn't have properties, it doesn't exist.
God doesn't have properties. God doesn't exist.

Properties HAVE to exist or else nothing else can.
If those properties are not constant, they are not properties.
What could cause properties to change over time?

Natural laws are when people identify one of these properties
and describe it in a summary statement or an algebraic equation.
Our discovery of these properties does not create them.

Not all of the laws we've devised are necessarily correct.
Sometimes they're wrong or the property isn't even real.
For example, both of the laws of biogenesis proved false.
 
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he_who_is_nobody

Active Member
Mrbatman appears to be a two-trick pony, interrupting and JAQing off. A written forum is the only place that mrbatman should be engaged with because neither of those tricks works on a written medium.

Also, has anyone else noticed that most Christian Apologists adopt the same cadence when speaking?
 

*SD*

Administrator
Staff member
This is why im trying to encourage written discussion on this here forumses :) It's far more difficult to wiggly wiggly worm in writing ;)
 
Oh Jesus Christ another Aron Ra debate. Is it almost exactly the same as the 100 other debates everyone has seen before?

Please stop wasting your talents and do something new for a change. Everyone knows you think Christians are dumb. I though you were supposed to be writting a book or something..
 

BrachioPEP

Moderator
Hey LZ, easy tiger. What was that little rant/attack about? Mr Batman began the post and another member happened to post a video link regarding the post topic of Mr Batman by the very same Mr Batman. And your unhappiness seems to be entirely and unrelatedly with another member, Aron Ra. (?)

Your perception or experience of, ‘everyone’ and, ‘the same’ may be somewhat subjective or more linked to his opposition. It would have been better to have mentioned that (e.g. using, ‘I’ instead of. ‘we’). If he is confronted with the, ‘same old’, then why would he respond differently to it all?

What does writing a book or not have to do with the price of fish? One presumes he is allowed to do more than one thing?

A little odd, LZ. You can do better. Words don’t always need to be said.

Here’s Mr Batman, again on the same topic, Gish Galloping and missing most points being made by Tom Jump, but not accepting them, as only the answers he wants will suffice.

Notice the (barely passive) aggressive nature of the Christian and the patience of the atheist.


Do you have, in conformity to the post, any scientific evidence for Jesus being God?
 

AronRa

Administrator
Please stop wasting your talents and do something new for a change. Everyone knows you think Christians are dumb.
Everyone knows what isn't true? That's interesting. The reality is that all the best advocates of reason over superstition have all once been believers, and those former believers now say that they didn't get any smarter when they lost their faith. Instead they just learned to question their beliefs analytically and think more logically.
 
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