Thunderf00t in trouble...!

[DepricatedZero]

After doing some research and reading into this, and the situation with DawahFilms as a refresher - there are distinct similarities and dissimilarities. There are enough similarities to make the comparison, and there is the potential to go beyond what DawahFilms did.

If a man holds a gun to someones head, but has never shot someone before, are you going to argue in his defense that because he has been shot in the past, it's not fair to assume he'll pull the trigger?

A quote from Ed Brayton via Pharyngula:

I really do find this outraged declaration that he does not "doc drop" to be almost laughably deluded. It's like someone who breaks into your house because you forgot to latch a window. He comes into your house and steals your china and jewelry, then reacts in mock outrage when you suggest that he might steal your TV too. In fact, he screams "I do not steal TVs!" at the top of his lungs to the neighbors while he's handing your other possessions out the door to someone else. And then he expects that declaration to be credible and to provide some assurance of his character.

The harm is already done. At this point, the best thing he can do is bow out and try to save some semblance of face. Personally, given his past with VenomFangX, I wouldn't blame FtB for going after him legally. I think the ultimate comeuppance and contrition would be for him to make a public apology to the internet, and specifically to FtB and its users.

Does Thunderf00t have the courage to do what he compelled VFX to do? When in the same position, does he have the grace to acknowledge his mistakes and try to resolve them? Or do you think he'll continue to spout about how he's being treated unfairly. Make no mistake, what he did violates law in the US (I'm not certain about the UK, or where TF lives, or where the FTB servers are located). He was kicked off the list, and even if he's simply exploiting a software oversight (non-expiring invitation tickets) to get back in - the moment he was removed from the private list, it was unethical and illegal for him to continue accessing the list without appropriate and intentional consent.

To quote Matt Dillahunty on this, "This is not about squelching peoples free speech, this is not about killing off peoples ability to have sex with people, this is about treating people decently."

I'm not defending what FtB did, but rather criticizing Thunderf00t's complete demonstration of his lack of ethics. He vaunts himself as a whistle blower, defending free speech.

The exact quote from TF

:

That's right, all I did was clued someone in whose job was being threatened as to FTBs little conspiring (some THIRTY emails over his single tweet!) against him and for this heinous crime FTB now wants me 'drummed out of the community' as 'a pariah'. And now this whistle blowing action is being reported on FTBs as:

It is clear now that he is a cruel man out to destroy anyone he thinks he can, either out of spite or out of a total disregard for collateral damage in his hatred for PZ. -Ashley F. Miller

This was is not a surgical strike. It was a firebombing. And it seems to have been done for no reason other than to pursue a personal vendetta.

This is a gross violation of basic human decency. There is no possible spin that can make it into anything else. -Greta Christina

Yes, we want to make Thunderf00t/Phil Mason a pariah in the atheist movement, and for good reason: he's a dishonest scumbag. The nice thing for us is that he's making it easy: Phil Mason is destroying his own reputation with his sleazy behavior. Who in their right mind would ever trust that guy with any confidence at all? -PZ Myers

He is a vile hypocrite who has lost whatever shred of credibility he may have had left. -Jen McCreight

He outright confesses that he forwarded emails, sent to him in confidence (presumably with an agreement that he would abide the privacy policies of FTP), and even publishes some of the comments. Sure, no one is in the right, but TF00t is sure as hell in the wrong. Why defend what he's done?

One of my favorite bloggers/vloggers, Zinnia Jones, nails the issue directly on the head, as always:

The need to hold private conversations is entirely legitimate, and respecting that privacy is a ground rule. Thunderf00t appears to have violated this egregiously, and his actions simply aren't justifiable. If disagreement on certain topics warrants breaching the privacy of those you disagree with and publicizing their confidential information, the possibility of any kind of good-faith discussion simply vanishes.

But the most poignant moment for me in all of this was our own AndromedasWake's recent vlog. This video made me tear up a bit, I won't lie. I've always loved AW, had a bit of a mancrush on him since I first watched his videos after joining this site. He talks about LOR, the Show, his friendship with TF, and seems to be really very sad about the evolution of Thunderf00t between when they became friends, and now.

In short, two wrongs don't make a right. Stop defending asshattery.

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

Dogma's Demise, the problem is - as others have pointed out - Thunderf00t passed on the contents of discussions that were "behind closed doors", and which he - and all those taking part in those discussions - agreed to not divulge.

That is the least offence of which he is guilty.

Never mind his re-use of the authentication email to regain access to the listserv from which he knew he'd been banned.

He is acting under the mistaken impression that - since he'd been banned - he can send information to anyone as he is no longer under the terms of agreement with regard to the contents of the listserv.

Yet, since he's been banned, he has no right to access that information in the first place - and it is the information he gained through the post-ban access that he's disseminated.

Either way, he's at fault.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but your defence of him appears to be based on "the enemy of my enemy (Islam) is my friend".

@DepricatedZero, just saw your post whilst previewing mine.

What you said about Thunderf00t's interaction with VFX reminded me of his interaction with Coughlan666 - the video where he makes Coughlan666 apologise. He appeared quite adamant and unforgiving in it.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[Laurens]

I can't see TF making an apology, or even conceding criticism. When has he ever done so in the past? As far as he is concerned he is right, and his actions are justifiable because he is exposing some kind of conspiracy...

I know I said I wouldn't pay any more attention to TF early on in this topic, and I subsequently went on to make dozens of posts, however, since doing some further reading into the subject, I don't think this is something that I or anyone else should let lie. He deserves to be shunned and criticised from all corners of the internet, and it needs to be made clear that this community (if you want to talk in those terms) does not put up with wankers like thunderf00t...

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

Personally, I don't think the reaction by various FtB bloggers - notably the "owner" - as depicted in the released emails was the best.

The idea of drumming him out of the "Atheist Movement" and ensuring he becomes "a pariah", smacks of excommunication.

Anyone can change - unless they're suffering from an incurable illness, including being sociopathic - all he needs is time to reflect on his attitudes (misogyny, etc), and actions, and change for the better.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[DepricatedZero]

I can't see TF making an apology, or even conceding criticism. When has he ever done so in the past? As far as he is concerned he is right, and his actions are justifiable because he is exposing some kind of conspiracy...

Yes. It's more of a rhetorical question. I might actually regain some respect for him if he were to offer such an apology. However, the way you describe him is correct, and exactly why I describe him as an ideologue.

and it needs to be made clear that this community (if you want to talk in those terms) does not put up with wankers like thunderf00t...

On this I disagree, my friend. One of the things that makes this site great, in my mind, is the difference of opinion many of us share. Many of us agree on many different points, however many of us also disagree on many different points as well. It is that disagreement that, in my mind, keeps this community interesting. The only virtue we all espouse is a community is Reason. There is no hive mind, no groupthink. At least, most of the time. I appreciate DogmasDemise because he carries opinions that most do not. There are many things that make this community great, next among them being tolerance for heated discussion, and the politeness we show each other even in such discussions. We don't shun people from the site (and to be fair, maybe you weren't implying we should not allow him to speak here if he chooses to) except in cases of blatant trolling. We're willing to hear (well, read) what people have to say, even if we don't agree with it. We have some of the most considerate, lucid, and well spoken members (Dragon Glas I'm looking at you, sir) I've ever had the pleasure of reading arguments from. We don't abandon reason, and I've seen many arguments result in one party changing their opinion.

That said, I think it's a great sentiment, and I have no qualms with saying that you and I do not approve of his behavior. I simply would not presume to make any statement about the collective approval/disapproval of such an eclectic community as this.

 

[Laurens]

Greetings,

Personally, I don't think the reaction by various FtB bloggers - notably the "owner" - as depicted in the released emails was the best.

The idea of drumming him out of the "Atheist Movement" and ensuring he becomes "a pariah", smacks of excommunication.

Anyone can change - unless they're suffering from an incurable illness, including being sociopathic - all he needs is time to reflect on his attitudes (misogyny, etc), and actions, and change for the better.

Kindest regards,

James

Well I don't think he should be excommunicated, he should be allowed to have his voice and so on. However, I think those who do not wish to be associated with him should make it clear why this should be so.

Edit:

To be clear, my sentiment is not that we should take his atheist badge off him and attempt to silence him, I think he should be allowed to operate in whatever way he chooses to, and should have the freedom to say and do what he wants online. However, I think that it is important that those who disagree with him, are vocal about it, and that those who wish to do so should make their desire to have nothing to do with him clear. I think that criticism of members of our own "movement" is in a way more important than criticism of members of the "opposition", and we should not suffer unethical dipshits like TF just for the sake of maintaining unity.

 

[Dogma's Demise]

Okay, I think I understand what you guys mean now.

But this...

Forgive me if I'm wrong but your defence of him appears to be based on "the enemy of my enemy (Islam) is my friend".

Uh no.

 

[he_who_is_nobody]

I think the ultimate comeuppance and contrition would be for him to make a public apology to the internet, and specifically to FtB and its users.

I second this notion.

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

Okay, I think I understand what you guys mean now.

But this...

Forgive me if I'm wrong but your defence of him appears to be based on "the enemy of my enemy (Islam) is my friend".

Uh no.

I apologise for the error, Dogma's Demise, but I trust that you can see how this impression could arise...

Kindest regards,

James

 

[ImprobableJoe]

I can't see TF making an apology, or even conceding criticism. When has he ever done so in the past? As far as he is concerned he is right, and his actions are justifiable because he is exposing some kind of conspiracy...

I know I said I wouldn't pay any more attention to TF early on in this topic, and I subsequently went on to make dozens of posts, however, since doing some further reading into the subject, I don't think this is something that I or anyone else should let lie. He deserves to be shunned and criticised from all corners of the internet, and it needs to be made clear that this community (if you want to talk in those terms) does not put up with wankers like thunderf00t...

Yeah, pretty much. Any community that accepts his sort of behavior is no sort of community I'd feel comfortable being a part of. He's seemingly incapable of doing anything but attacking people for having "wronged him" in ways that only exist in his head, let alone apologizing for his part in things. And he's STILL convinced that his popularity validates anything and everything he does.

 

[Dustnite]

I know I said I wouldn't pay any more attention to TF early on in this topic, and I subsequently went on to make dozens of posts, however, since doing some further reading into the subject, I don't think this is something that I or anyone else should let lie. He deserves to be shunned and criticised from all corners of the internet, and it needs to be made clear that this community (if you want to talk in those terms) does not put up with wankers like thunderf00t...

QFE. My sentiments exactly.

 

[Laurens]

Here is TF's latest blog post... http://thunderf00tdotorg.wordpress.com/2012/08/12/ftb-and-the-conspiracy-to-defraud-drawing-a-line-under-this-pointless-crap/

You might want to remove any sharp/heavy objects that you might be inclined to smash things with before reading...

Edit: I think this is probably as close to an apology from him as anyone is gonna get. He hasn't acknowledged any wrong doing, and he's trying to back away from the issue...

 

[Prolescum]

Wow, I didn't realise LiveJournal's influence was this broad.

 

[Dustnite]

To be honest, I wouldn't want to be seen to profit off petit drama like this (I never monetize videos that deal with this sort of thing), and I'm sure FTB would likewise agree. Indeed it would be nice to see FTB follow my lead on this and donate all the revenue generated from this pointless drama to the same charity.

Too late...

This is all attention whoring at its best and an egotistical diatribe at its worst all for the sole purpose of page hits or internet popularity. Reading the comments are only for the masochistic readers here, you have been warned...

 

[scalyblue]

I think it's rather unethical to consider not paying an author for hits on their own work; expelled or not.

The guy's a douchebag, no questions about it. I still like his earlier youtube videos despite his douchebaggery, but here's the problem I have with this whole debacle.

If you're butthurt that he modified a computer system to gain unauthorized access to information he shouldn't have access to, do you
A: have the authorities prosecute him for wiretapping or
B: Bitch about it on the interwebs.

Last time I checked, Tf00t is still blogging, not in cuffs, without a gag order on the whole ordeal, and without even a police report filed.

I can only see a few reasons why that is not the outcome we have already seen.

People care about him so much that they don't want to go to the law?
Fuck that, the general consensus I see is that everybody hates him.

He didn't actually hack into anything.
Nothing to involve the authorities about, being a douchebag isn't a crime.

The evidence that would be furnished to prove his guilt would be equally damning to FTB or one of its members
Don't know how, or why, but it is a possibility.

So, ALL we really have is a bunch of bullshit hearsay from BOTH SIDES and the only thing it is actually accomplishing is stroking the ego-cocks of every single person involved in one big circlejerk.

STOP IT.

edited for a spelling error.

 

[DepricatedZero]

He's clearly getting high off the drama at this point.

 

[Dogma's Demise]

You know, I'm getting kinda tired of all this stupid drama, I think this will be the last time I ever get involved in these silly Internet feuds.

Any future "drama" threads or videos that don't concern me directly, I'm just going to insta-thumbs down, regardless of which side it is, that is if I even open the video.


My final words on this would be:

1. About TF

- exploiting software bugs to get access to things you shouldn't (such as private conversations) - not cool
- reacting the way he did with people he was supposedly friends with - again not cool, I understand the urge to just rip into random strangers, but come on these were supposed to be your FRIENDS, you don't mock them with titles like "FFS PZ L2READ" and call your friend "Strawmyers" and "PC Lyers"

And here I was thinking that "strawmyers" remark was really just amicable bickering, not really something people took personally or meant personally. I guess I was wrong.

- strawmanned FtB

2. About FtB/PZ

- contemplating defrauding someone by withholding funds he clearly earned - not cool
- you were not flawless yourselves, you did strawman TF just as he strawmanned you
- you broke your promise about not controlling the content
- your definition of "freethought" appears too restrictive
- you pretend like you have a monopoly on the "atheist community" and get to decide who should be in it and who should be a "pariah", wake up to the real world, you don't control anything apart from your own little blogs, I'll subscribe and associate with whoever I feel like it regardless of what your atheist "orthodoxy" says. You don't like TF fine, criticize him, don't talk to him, don't associate with him, just don't pretend you're an authority on the matter and that only those who listen to you are "true" contributors to the "movement".


To both sides I think you should all be ashamed of yourselves, bottom line is you were supposed to be friends and you let this degenerate into this crap... You met in real life, you had fun together, and now this sudden change of attitude toward each other over a stupid issue. :roll: Was it really that hard to come to some consensus or at the very least agree to disagree? I guess so.

 

[Visaki]

I find myself agreeing with Dogma's Demise on his final words (though F00t didn't exploit a software bug but, as I understand it, stupidity of the admin). Both sides of the drama are to blame, both sides have done things that I consider unethical, and both sides have fanbois that can see no fault in their side.

All in all I think FtB got hit worse, publicity wise, than F00t partly because of the "one agaist many" angle (or, "heroic Funderf00t defending free speech, liberty and equality alone against the FtB hypocritical, conspiratorial and groupminded hordes of PZ") and part because of the FtB communications F00t leaked.

 

[DepricatedZero]

I find myself agreeing with Dogma's Demise on his final words (though F00t didn't exploit a software bug but, as I understand it, stupidity of the admin). Both sides of the drama are to blame, both sides have done things that I consider unethical, and both sides have fanbois that can see no fault in their side.

All in all I think FtB got hit worse, publicity wise, than F00t partly because of the "one agaist many" angle (or, "heroic Funderf00t defending free speech, liberty and equality alone against the FtB hypocritical, conspiratorial and groupminded hordes of PZ") and part because of the FtB communications F00t leaked.

No one came out well from this, certainly. It's a stupid situation.

But foot did use a software bug, as it was explained. Basically, the mail program that was being used(Mailman) sends an email that contains an invitation key. The bug is that the key was never written to expire. That's not an administrative oversight, it's a developer oversight, which makes it a bug.

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

I find myself agreeing with Dogma's Demise on his final words (though F00t didn't exploit a software bug but, as I understand it, stupidity of the admin). Both sides of the drama are to blame, both sides have done things that I consider unethical, and both sides have fanbois that can see no fault in their side.

All in all I think FtB got hit worse, publicity wise, than F00t partly because of the "one agaist many" angle (or, "heroic Funderf00t defending free speech, liberty and equality alone against the FtB hypocritical, conspiratorial and groupminded hordes of PZ") and part because of the FtB communications F00t leaked.

No one came out well from this, certainly. It's a stupid situation.

But foot did use a software bug, as it was explained. Basically, the mail program that was being used(Mailman) sends an email that contains an invitation key. The bug is that the key was never written to expire. That's not an administrative oversight, it's a developer oversight, which makes it a bug.

The software may have a bug in it regarding non-expiring tickets but there is a option to manually authorise access to the site when someone uses the ticket. The fact that this option wasn't activated - all it needed was for it to be ticked - lies with FtB.

The real problem is that people think that others will play by the rules.

In military intelligence, you don't go by what people will do but by what people can do.

This is a salutary lesson for any organisation who lets people go. whether amicably or not: ensure that they can't access your organisation unsupervised, whether physically (entering the building using old security codes on key pads by not changing your codes) or electronically (as Thunderf00t did).

Kindest regards,

James