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Wrong.leroy said:yes and there are atleast 4 possibilitiesDragan Glas said:Greetings,
Since "GOD can do it", this shows that god KNOWS what would convince a soul he's supposed to have created to believe in him.
As I've pointed out a few times but to which I have not received a coherent reply.
Kindest regards,
James
1 God knows that nothing would convince you
Which is an unnecessary option if that's God's goal.leroy said:2 God will do something and convince you at some point in your life
That would mean that God would have created souls that were never going to have a loving relationship - which contradicts the property of omni-benevolence - similar to 1.leroy said:3 If God does X and X would convince you, it could be that by doing X god would loose other potencial followers, he would gain you but he would also loose others.
Wrong.leroy said:4 God doesn't exist
unless you disprove 1,2,3 you shouldn't automatically conclude 4
leroy said:he_who_is_nobody said:I obviously disagree. Since you never demonstrated a deity has a goal, how could I agree with anything based off that? Care to justify your premise now?
if God doesn't have a Goal then why would he do something different like knocking doors ?
leroy said:Yep. All you have is a counterfactual
yes the original argument presented by Grumpy was based on counterfactuals and I am answering with other counterfactuals. you have a personal issue with counterfactuals but that is only your own personal issue.
leroy said:. Now care to justify your premise or are you going to insist, again, that because you can string a sentence together, you have an argument?
the burden proof is yours, you (well grumpy) are the one who is presenting the argument you are the one who has to prove that by doing something different (like knocking doors) humans would react according to Gods desires or goals.
you are the one who is making a positive argument, you are the one who is claiming that by doing something different (like knocking doors) humans would do whatever God intends us to do.
[url=http://www.theleagueofreason.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=179724#p179724 said:leroy[/url]"]a loving relationship by definition is a two way street...
Dragan Glas said:If God supposedly created me, he'd have created me to have a loving relationship with him (his purported goal, at least according to you) - if not, then what's the point in creating me? (As I've already pointed out in a previous post to which I haven't received a coherent response.)
Which is an unnecessary option if that's God's goal.
That would mean that God would have created souls that were never going to have a loving relationship - which contradicts the property of omni-benevolence - similar to 1.
Wrong.
Again, like all theists/deists, you assume a supernatural creator-entity exists.
The null position is that no supernatural creator-entity exists - it's for theists to provide evidence (the four steps to which I referred in a earlier post) that such a entity exists.
he_who_is_nobody said:You are the one claiming a deity has a goal. I am simply asking why you think that. What is up with this weird burden shift?
The argument Grumpy Santa presented was the argument from the silence of a god.
Sparhafoc said:The null hypothesis, LEROY
Learn what it means, be better informed, stop repeating your fabulously amusing errors.
Or don't - it's pleasant to have a village idiot to hand.
Grumpy Santa wrote:
Not a very impressive god. You'd think that it would be powerful enough to provide evidence so incontrovertible that someone would have no choice but to accept it. It should be smart enough to know what that would be for any individual, shouldn't it?
leroy said:God supposedly created you with the ability to ether willingly decide to love him or to willingly decide to reject him, it could be that there is nothing he could do, to make you willing to love him
leroy said:form previous threads, it is obvious that your are not even willing to look at the arguments for the existence of God and make an honest effort to understand them, why would knocking your door or do something else produce a different reaction is you?
leroy said:I don't understand the objection.
leroy said:God crated souls with free will,
9 My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD.
16 This is what the LORD Almighty says: “Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD.
3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
leroy said:I could be that by doing X God would gain you, and X is the only thing that would make you love God, but by ding X God might loss many other potencial followers.
this has something to do with the butterfly effect, a small miracle in your house that would convince you, could produce a disaster in China that would deconvert many Christians.
leroy said:Wrong, in this particular context the null hypothesis is that God cold have not done anything different (like knocking doors) to achieve his goals more efficiently.
leroy"this is suppose to be a positive argument for the existence of God said:In other words, the opposite of how thousands of years of logic has worked.
The things you need to say to protect your silly belief system. Comedy gold.
leroy said:what would be the null hypothesis for this statement? if you can answer correctly you will prove that you can answer something that a 13yo can answer
Dragon Glas said:Again, like all theists/deists, you assume a supernatural creator-entity exists.
The null position is that no supernatural creator-entity exists - it's for theists to provide evidence (the four steps to which I referred in a earlier post) that such a entity exists.
leroy said:I am not the one who is claiming that God has a goal,...
leroy said:yes and the argument presupposes that God has a goal,
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
leroy said:form previous threads, it is obvious that your are not even willing to look at the arguments for the existence of God and make an honest effort to understand them, why would knocking your door or do something else produce a different reaction is you?
Sparhafoc said:leroy said:God supposedly created you with the ability to ether willingly decide to love him or to willingly decide to reject him, it could be that there is nothing he could do, to make you willing to love him
As already explained, internal contradiction.
You're saying that God does not have the knowledge or power to change a human being's mind.
God is supposedly maximally knowledgeable, and maximally powerful, while humans are painted as being mere shadows, barely even pixels compared to 'his' maximalness.
you cant prove that if God exists he would have achieved his goals more efficiently if he would have done something different, like knocking doors or being less silent
leroy said:remember when I told you that I was going to ignore irrelevant comments? you see it doesn't matter if you are 100% in this particular point, even if you succeed in showing a contradiction.
that does absolutely nothing to show that this statement is wrong
leroy said:so try again, but in your next reply please focus just on relevant comments, you will save hours of your precious time if you do that.
Sparhafoc said:I posted this 'proof', and have since linked to it... what... 5 or 6 times each time LEROY repeats his idiotic spiel.
http://leagueofreason.org.uk/viewtopic.php?p=179602#p179602
Already answered in spades. You can't debunk it because it follows logically, and no answer you can give is coherent - just attempts at circular reasoning.
Oh and we still have that little topic in waiting where I have shown that you contradicted the Bible, the very source you appeal to for legitimacy for your arguments.
You haven't just lost this discussion, LEROY, you've lost the war singlehandedly. But, in true Black Knight fashion, you still think you can bite my ankles.
LEROY, I would hazard a guess you've been kicked off of every other discussion forum you've been on. It's not 'them' LEROY, it's you.
I want a relationship with my neighbours.
I can do one of two things.
1) Hide, erase all evidence of my existence, get a bunch of undereducated, barely literate loons to tell everyone that they know I exist and that they can speak to me and hear my voice and know I love all my neighbours and want them to believe in me before I will present myself to them, then spend gigantic amounts of my material wealth and individual energy contriving and planting empirical evidence which very strongly suggests that I don't exist, and that all the stories my barely literate loons tell are categorically and unequivocally bollocks.
or
2) Go and knock on the door and introduce myself. Perhaps take a bunch of flowers or a cake?
Were the issues with this not pointed out to Leroy?leroy said:God supposedly created you with the ability to ether willingly decide to love him or to willingly decide to reject him, it could be that there is nothing he could do, to make you willing to love him
form previous threads, it is obvious that your are not even willing to look at the arguments for the existence of God and make an honest effort to understand them, why would knocking your door or do something else produce a different reaction is you?
Were the issues with this not pointed out to Leroy?leroy said:God crated souls with free will,
I could be that by doing X God would gain you, and X is the only thing that would make you love God, but by ding X God might loss many other potencial followers.
this has something to do with the butterfly effect, a small miracle in your house that would convince you, could produce a disaster in China that would deconvert many Christians.
Is it that Leroy does not understand the null hypothesis? Or is it that Leroy prefers this "clearly not the null"-hypothesis as a strawman (that he will still fail to knock down)?leroy said:Wrong, in this particular context the null hypothesis is that God cold have not done anything different (like knocking doors) to achieve his goals more efficiently.
Leroy is confusing his arguments here. Even Leroy's version of the "Silence of god" argument requires premises and if the premises are demonstrated to be true, then the argument stands if the conclusion follows from the premises.leroy said:this is suppose to be a positive argument for the existence of God, you are the one who has to disprove every other possibility before concluding that God doesn't exist.
From someone who constantly runs away from the usual form of the argument and who runs away from the comments that point out that his "objections" to Leroy's version of the "Silence of god" argument , the hypocrisy would be astounding... If we were talking about someone other than Leroy that is.leroy said:form previous threads, it is obvious that your are not even willing to look at the arguments for the existence of God and make an honest effort to understand them, why would knocking your door or do something else produce a different reaction is you?
Which means, as I've said several times, that god is creating souls to burn in hell for all eternity - which means that god can't be omni-benevolent (all-good).leroy said:God supposedly created you with the ability to ether willingly decide to love him or to willingly decide to reject him, it could be that there is nothing he could do, to make you willing to love him.Dragan Glas said:If God supposedly created me, he'd have created me to have a loving relationship with him (his purported goal, at least according to you) - if not, then what's the point in creating me? (As I've already pointed out in a previous post to which I haven't received a coherent response.)
Given I was brought up Roman Catholic in Ireland, this is clearly nonsense.leroy said:form previous threads, it is obvious that your are not even willing to look at the arguments for the existence of God and make an honest effort to understand them,
An omni-benevolent/omnipotent god would create me to love him, and thus be with him instead of burning in hell for all eternity.leroy said:why would knocking your door or do something else produce a different reaction is you?
If god's goal is to bring me to him then offering an option of doing something to bring me to him is unnecessary. The other three options are what happens after he does something to bring me to him.leroy said:I don't understand the objection.Which is an unnecessary option if that's God's goal.
Which means that god has created souls to burn in hell - ergo, god is not omni-benevolent.leroy said:God crated souls with free will,That would mean that God would have created souls that were never going to have a loving relationship - which contradicts the property of omni-benevolence - similar to 1.
I could be that by doing X God would gain you, and X is the only thing that would make you love God, but by ding X God might loss many other potencial followers.
this has something to do with the butterfly effect, a small miracle in your house that would convince you, could produce a disaster in China that would deconvert many Christians.
No - the null hypothesis is that god(s) don't exist. It's for the believer to provide evidence that any entity, then their entity, exists.leroy said:Wrong, in this particular context the null hypothesis is that God cold have not done anything different (like knocking doors) to achieve his goals more efficiently.Wrong.
Again, like all theists/deists, you assume a supernatural creator-entity exists.
The null position is that no supernatural creator-entity exists - it's for theists to provide evidence (the four steps to which I referred in a earlier post) that such a entity exists.
this is suppose to be a positive argument for the existence of God, you are the one who has to disprove every other possibility before concluding that God doesn't exist.