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The Non-Morality of Theism

Zylstra

New Member
arg-fallbackName="Zylstra"/>
The Non-Morality of Theism


I find that Abrahamic- primarily Christian and neo christian- individuals oft tell far more than they realize. Take, for instance, a common argument used by many such theists to argue the 'goodness' of religion. This argument usually takes the form of 'how can one be good without god?', 'where do your morals come from?' or, perhaps most frighteningly, 'I cannot see people being good without god.'

What is so telling about these words? Well, basically, what these people are arguing is that they cannot imagine anyone being 'good' without god- more specifically, that they cannot see how anyone can be moral or upright without the fear of hell. Buddhists make a similar claim regarding Karma and reincarnation. Now, think about what they're saying here. They cannot see how anyone... including themselves... can be good... good being defined, as clear by the context as honest and not bringing harm... without fear of punishment.

Now, society has long recognized that some people will only be deterred from undesirable actions by the fear of punishment. This is why executions have historically been quite public and we in America make it well known that criminal behavior results in incarceration. However, most people will admit that such persons are a minority and that most people will try to be 'good' of their own accord, per their own conscience. Indeed, altruism is only natural, as it and the expectation of reciprocation have historically been good not only for the individual, but for humanity as a whole. For a more in-depth examination of these, do a Google search on the moral instinct.

These theists, however, make a different claim. Not only do they claim that such persons... persons who will only act in an acceptable matter if they fear a great enough punishment... are the majority, they claim that every single person is motivated to be good, honest, or altruistic purely out of fear pf punishment if they are caught doing something wrong. Every person. Including themselves. Not only this, but most common forms of punishment are not enough o keep them in line. Fear of incarceration of even execution is not enough to keep these people in line. Only fear of an eternity of indescribable suffering is enough to motivate them,.


These people admit, through their arguments, that they are either amoral or immoral. For those not familiar with these terms, amorality is the lack or a personal sense of morality. Immorality describes one who acts without regard to morality, where amorality implies a total lack of a moral guide in the first place. Either of these scenarios should be quite frightening when one realized that these non-moral individuals, who either lack altogether any moral guidelines or would not be limited by them anyway are the very people who seek to not only claim a moral high ground, but who would then seek to push their twisted views of their so-called morality... the mere law of an ancient culture, which is founded on no moral or ethical code, as we have just discussed, into the public arena to influence our own laws. They are also the ones who wish to see these views instilled in children.

This reality should be very unsettling to any thinking, rational person with a vested interest in their own well being or that of their children, their society, their nation, or humanity as a whole. Remember that the non-morality of Abrahamism has been seen in the past in the form of genocides, inquisitions, and witch burnings. This is not mere speculation or philosophy. The results of such twisted views have been seen time and again over the past six thousand years of theist influence. While we most oft encounter these arguments when dealing with Christians in the West, this same problem is seen manifest in all theistic religions that claim to take a sense of morality... indeed a misnomer, as they are unable to tell morality from mere law... from ancient texts and are willing to act I accordance to the alleged will of their delusions without regard to any sense of morality or ethics or any care for their fellow Man.

This is perhaps the biggest reason we must oppose theism and the thinking that oft accompanies it, if we are ever going to see the existence of a more just society.
 
arg-fallbackName="WolfAU"/>
The Abrahamic faiths were never designed to make people 'moral', they were designed to control, manipulate and exploit the masses, telling them to do whatever they were told, to give their money to the church and be greatful for a shit life and spend all their life looking forward to a payoff they will never get.

'how can one be good without god?'
A good youtube video I think sum up my issues with those arguments (here), another I can't find, by tooltime addressing that "morality from God" is essentially a "might makes right" argument, and touches onto the euthyphro dilemma.

I also feel there is something telling, that these people would not be so moral if they didn't feel under constant watch by God and that he would punish them... its only when we see people when they know they can get away with it do we really see what kind of person they are. Though I suppose if you ignore thought and focus only on action (which the bible makes clear God cares about motive and intent), constant threats of eternal torment can be useful for manipulating people to obey the will of others... but who says that will is virtuous (see case and point, the Roman Catholic church for the last 500 years).

I suppose the question then becomes 'how do we feel about an absolute monster, kept on a moral leash by a magical skydaddy?' if the promise of heaven and the fear of hell never waver and as such that individual commits no crimes, is that an acceptable compromise (or even a desireable outcome)? Personally I would encourage better education and for these people to be taught complex, but accurate and useful moral codes and concepts, but I realise there are some people too apathetic, remorseless or psychopathic... or just plain too stupid for this message to reach.
 
arg-fallbackName="Zylstra"/>
WolfAU said:
Personally I would encourage better education and for these people to be taught complex, but accurate and useful moral codes and concepts, .


Can one have any such thing as an 'accurate' moral code? Does that not presuppose moral absolutes that we are to emulate or attempt to abide by? Also, you seem to refer more to potential ethical codes than internal moral ones.
 
arg-fallbackName="Witalian"/>
Zylstra said:
Can one have any such thing as an 'accurate' moral code? Does that not presuppose moral absolutes that we are to emulate or attempt to abide by? Also, you seem to refer more to potential ethical codes than internal moral ones.

Why would it presuppose any such things?
Cosmic values do not exist, but that does not mean that values at all do not exist. Values are put by people, and they only make sense in respect to a desirable outcome. Hitting with a hammer is nether good or bad. But it is good for nailing stuff, and it is bad for not hurting your arm if you hit it. However if your goal is to hurt yorself then it is good. If your goal is to kill a fly that is resting on your arm, then it is good for that too. But it's not good for the purpous of killing the fly and not hurting your arm at the same time.
If the desirable outcome is good life for all people, then acurate moral code can be invented.
 
arg-fallbackName="Witalian"/>
WolfAU said:
I suppose the question then becomes 'how do we feel about an absolute monster, kept on a moral leash by a magical skydaddy?' if the promise of heaven and the fear of hell never waver and as such that individual commits no crimes, is that an acceptable compromise (or even a desireable outcome)?

No, it's nether desirable nor acceptable, because it alows a twisted mindset to survive by keeping a low profile.
Such a mindset must allways be exposed and confronted. And must not be allowed to propagate.
That's what natural selection is all about - removeing the detrimental parts and keeping the good and the neutral.
But natural selection is too slow, and if it can't remove the bad geens it has the habit of removeing the entire species.
So we can't make compromises with meems that treaten the future of uor species.
 
arg-fallbackName="WolfAU"/>
Re Witalian: "That's what natural selection is all about - removeing the detrimental parts and keeping the good and the neutral."
I'm with Dawkins, natural selection really should not be applied to morality/ethics. Just because its natures play book doesn't condone or justify it to me. As we evolve as a species the more we can break free and write our own playbook.

Re Zylstra: "Does that not presuppose moral absolutes that we are to emulate or attempt to abide by?"
No it doesn't really, as I believe almost all human beings can come to a great deal of agreement over not only specific moral issues (ie murder, kidnap, rape, theft etc), but on the rationale of WHY these are wrong.

I have several moral litmus tests, which I think most people would agree on.
- Would you like for it to be done to you or someone you care about (example we don't wish for people to steal from us, hurt us, kill us or people we care about, but acts of kindness, charity etc)?
- Would you be ashamed of the action (would you attempt to cover it up and lie about it if asked directly). This is actually where the human 'conscience' comes from, we create an external concept of ourselves, and judge the action (ie I would condemn it if a friend told me they have stolen something, so my conscience condemns me doing it).
- What are the consequences of the action (ie stealing 100,000 dollars from a millionaire would not be as morally reprehensible as stealing half that from a poor person). What are the consequences of NOT doing it (necessity).

Keep in mind I draw a distinction between something being ethical/moral, something being forgiveable, and something being necessary (ie killing 1 to save 10 is not ethical, but is both forgiveable and many would deem necessary, as is killing someone in self defense).

I think most humans agree on these principles. The reason these are not absolute is...
- What people would accept/forgive or like being to themselves, how to what degree.
- What people deem appropriate behaviour (ie what standard they hold their friends to)
- and what people predict are the consequences, and what they deem to be necessary.
 
arg-fallbackName="Witalian"/>
WolfAU said:
I'm with Dawkins, natural selection really should not be applied to morality/ethics. Just because its natures play book doesn't condone or justify it to me...

I think most humans agree on these principles. The reason these are not absolute is...
- What people would accept/forgive or like being to themselves, how to what degree.
- What people deem appropriate behaviour (ie what standard they hold their friends to)
- and what people predict are the consequences, and what they deem to be necessary.

I never claimed that it is good because it's natural. Dieing of cancer is also natural, but it's bad both for the human and for the cancer.
I said that a thing can be good or bad for a particular purpous, and I mentioned natural selection for being good for a speciffic purpous - removeing detirmental traits.I also said that artificial selection is much better, because natural selection does not have prefferd outcome, if we can't addapt we go exitnct.

And I say natural selction must not be applied IN morality but it must be applied AT morality. Our morals must benefit our survival, but that does not mean we shoud be "social darwinists"/Lamarkists. We shoud ask : wich morals surve us best? And we MUST remove the detrimental ones, either thru education or if nessesary tru incerceration. That's why we must give the bad stuff a chance to show it's face and that's why we must destroy its protective blanket.

Most people will agre on your points because they will agree on the desirable outcome. We have evolved to care about our children and that's why we all agree that rapeing a child is horiblee thing. We don't care that much when we ruin the lif of an addult, because in our evolution we have been competeing with eachother. At the present point we have technology that makes it no longer nessesary to play a zero sum game. So our intuitions are not good enought. We must imply reason in defining the behavoiurs that give the best outcome for all.
 
arg-fallbackName="WolfAU"/>
Dying of cancer... now we hit the hardcore morality.

"What criteria do we use to decide death is ethical or unethical?" It fails the "you wouldn't want to die before your time" test, but unless we issue some form of permenant contraception (ie reservable surgical sterilisation for everyone), and use some form of controlling births (ie growing children in a lab or giving couples breeder licenses) then we hit a ceiling where the benefit of low mortality is offset by other harms (ie massive overcrowding, scarcity of resources, endemic disease, massive job shortages and the psychological harm of overpopulation, such as image problems, sense of self etc).

And yes, my heart weeps for the poor cancer tissue that dies along with its host... ;)

"Our morals must benefit our survival..."
I disagree, thats the point I was trying to make before about necessity. We can feel option X is immoral/unethical, and choose that option for amoral reasons like necessity, greater good etc, plus we're often forced to choose between the lesser of two evils, though I suspect this us just your and my definitions of morality being slightly different.

Also my goal with theism has been about reducing its political power (ie not having leaders worry that a bunch of wacko's are afraid that God won't like the fact that we're doing life saving research on unwanted embryo's).

You seem to be taking a fairly practicalist stance (morality is whatever works best) stance, whereas I'm arguing more the heart of morality is empathy, humans innate ability to put ourselves in the position of another, to feel their pain, sadness, desperation etc... That this gives us a sense of what we should and shouldn't do

We care less about the life of an adult than a child, partly because of social teachings, and part instinct, I disagree that it has anything to do with competing with adults (most of our evolution occured in small packs or tribes, where our success or failure depended on how effectively we worked as a group, that is why we tend to help others out, is a desire to help our 'pack' to be stronger and more effective), the only real zero sum game that applies to human instinct is in status and mate selection, and as such thats usually where you see the worst in people, and tech hasn't changed squat. We still have to compete against each other for status, jobs, mates, material wealth, these will never change, but also if all humans could easily achieve all their ambitions, I think living would be poorer for it (ie we naturally want new things when we get what we want, so what happens when we get everything we want? This is the reason why alot of powerful individuals like celebrities tend to have mental breakdowns, abuse drugs etc)
 
arg-fallbackName="Zylstra"/>
WolfAU said:
I have several moral litmus tests, which I think most people would agree on.
- Would you like for it to be done to you or someone you care about (example we don't wish for people to steal from us, hurt us, kill us or people we care about, but acts of kindness, charity etc)?

That's ethics, not morality. What you're basically arguing is social contra t and reciprocity

- Would you be ashamed of the action

should one feel shame?


no.. do please use quote tags in the futrure
 
arg-fallbackName="WolfAU"/>
Quote tags bug me, they're unnecessarily bulky and can end up making a post 3 times bigger than an alternative.
Zylstra said:
That's ethics, not morality. What you're basically arguing is social contra[c]t and reciprocity
I'm not sure thats what I'm arguing, what I'm saying is that it is hard to argue your intention is noble if you would not want the behaviour done to you, I'm not saying there is some kind of unwritten rule that if you scratch my back I'll scratch yours...
Zylstra said:
should one feel shame?... no
Not sure if you got my point, but what I mean is, if you actively try to hide an action from others because you know others would not approve, your ability to argue your intention was honourable or that an ordinary person would consider your actions justified or at least necessary is hindered.
 
arg-fallbackName="Witalian"/>
WolfAU said:
Dying of cancer... now we hit the hardcore morality.

"What criteria do we use to decide death is ethical or unethical?"

Well the planet probably couldn't care less if there is or isn't life. But we care because we are life. So for us : Life - good, No life - not good.
Sometimes something have to die in order for something else to live. We may fill bad when we talk about one life traded for another as if it is some stock - it sound cynical, but we will all agree that if one fireman saves 6 people and dies in the proces, that is a good outcome. After all that's his job - to risk his own life to save others and we are OK with that.
And we will agree that is good thing when a sniper shoots a sucide bomber in a croud of people and prevents him from detonateing. So sometimes death is good as well.
"Our morals must benefit our survival..."
I disagree, thats the point I was trying to make before about necessity. We can feel option X is immoral/unethical, and choose that option for amoral reasons like necessity

I am a bit confused here. First you say you dissagree, then you say that if somthing is nessesary then it's OK, we just keep in our mind that this thing is not OK while doing it. I don't think that how we fill about something is relevant to how good or bad it is.
We care less about the life of an adult than a child, partly because of social teachings, and part instinct, I disagree that it has anything to do with competing with adults (most of our evolution occured in small packs or tribes

Small pakcs who oftenly engaged in brutal wars with other small packs. When that happends too much emphaty for the adults won't realy help the war effort.

the only real zero sum game that applies to human instinct is in status and mate selection


In modern societys maybe, but in the past the most common form of diplomacy was from the tip of the spear. Most wars in history have been for resources teritory and manpower.
 
arg-fallbackName="WolfAU"/>
Witalian said:
So for us : Life - good, No life - not good.
The point I was making is that through overly preserving human life, some evils can befall us... that is the reason why we grow old and die to begin with, there are simply not enough resources to go around. So the simplistic 'life good, not living bad' approach, while I agree with 99% of it, does leave this issue of forcing us to prevent overpopulation.
I am a bit confused here. First you say you dissagree, then you say that if somthing is nessesary then it's OK, we just keep in our mind that this thing is not OK while doing it. I don't think that how we fill about something is relevant to how good or bad it is.
I think the confusion is that I consider the morality of an act in a relative vacuum (factoring in motive, intent etc) and then weigh that against other factors like what would happen if I didn't.

Example you list the sniper shooting a suicide bomber and call it 'good', which I sense is your NET evaluation of it, whereas I consider it bad/immoral, but necessary by the nature of it (ie to let them blow themselves up would be worse). Its a subtle difference, but I think its beneficial to keep things in perspective (ie killing to me is never a good thing, but there are times when we should do it anyway).
Small pa[ck]s who often engaged in brutal wars with other small packs. When that happends too much emp[ath]y for the adults won't realy help the war effort.
That makes the ridiculous assumption we've evolve to war with each other. Aggression in nature is common, violence (ie wars) is almost unheard of, and remains to a large degree, a human trait.
In modern societys maybe, but in the past the most common form of diplomacy was from the tip of the spear. Most wars in history have been for resources teritory and manpower.
You're confusing early human history (ie 10,000BCE-5,000BCE) with the period where we underwent the most important evolutionary stages (50.000-150,000+ BCE), you're also confusing 'zero sum games' internal to the pack with those external to the pack, the point I was trying to make is that we naturally like to help others because usually our tribe lives or dies as a group (which makes for some very fascinating genetic attributes).
 
arg-fallbackName="Witalian"/>
WolfAU said:
The point I was making is that through overly preserving human life, some evils can befall us... that is the reason why we grow old and die to begin with, there are simply not enough resources to go around. So the simplistic 'life good, not living bad' approach, while I agree with 99% of it, does leave this issue of forcing us to prevent overpopulation.

Our apperant dissagreement comes from the fact that we look at the problem from a different scope. When a said "our morals must benefit our survival" by "our" I meaned the survival of our species and of life on earth in general. Not the survival of the individuals. If we use our intuitions to guide our morals then we may start "overly preserving human life". If we aply rerason we will se that overpopulation may lead to a biological oversoot and eventualy may cause the extinction of the human species. And the biggest crime we can do in my version of morality is to cause the extinction of the human species or of life on earth.
I think the confusion is that I consider the morality of an act in a relative vacuum

I don't consider any value to have any meaning in a relative vacuum. I got your point anyway.
That makes the ridiculous assumption we've evolve to war with each other. Aggression in nature is common, violence (ie wars) is almost unheard of, and remains to a large degree, a human trait.

We evolved to survive, and that involves simethimes fighting for resources and lebensraum. Neighboring wolf packs also do war with eachother over lebensraum/resources. And it's pretty barbaric. They will kill the offspring of the rival pack to prevent them from growing up and competeing for food.
You're confusing early human history (ie 10,000BCE-5,000BCE) with the period where we underwent the most important evolutionary stages (50.000-150,000+ BCE), you're also confusing 'zero sum games' internal to the pack with those external to the pack
No, I am not. Competeition for resources is happening everywhere in the animal kingdom. And I have never said that the zero sum games are internal to the pack. Angain the disagreement comes from the differesnce in scope
 
arg-fallbackName="SatanicBunny"/>
Zylstra said:
The Non-Morality of Theism


I find that Abrahamic- primarily Christian and neo christian- individuals oft tell far more than they realize. Take, for instance, a common argument used by many such theists to argue the 'goodness' of religion. This argument usually takes the form of 'how can one be good without god?', 'where do your morals come from?' or, perhaps most frighteningly, 'I cannot see people being good without god.'

What is so telling about these words? Well, basically, what these people are arguing is that they cannot imagine anyone being 'good' without god- more specifically, that they cannot see how anyone can be moral or upright without the fear of hell. Buddhists make a similar claim regarding Karma and reincarnation. Now, think about what they're saying here. They cannot see how anyone... including themselves... can be good... good being defined, as clear by the context as honest and not bringing harm... without fear of punishment.
.

What I've always wondered is how can anyone with half a brain consider a being that gives infinite rewards for finite deeds and likewise infinite punishments for finite crimes to be "good" or "moral" in any sense of the word.
Witalian said:
I don't consider any value to have any meaning in a relative vacuum.

This is true. We don't act in a vacuum, so we shouldn't judge our deeds in relation to a vacuum, we should judge our deeds in relation to the siotuation, especially since each situation is unique.

For example, I, like most ohers here, think that the act of killing another person is never good in itself and hence it should be avoided at all cost. If we look at the suicide bomber situation we'll realize that killing cannot be avoided, since either the sniper kills the bomber or he kills himself and a lot of by-standers with him. So it is the best available option to just kill the bomber since it minimizes the amount of casualities. It's pure utilitarism, but it works, and it doesn't mean that I consider killing to be good. I just consider - out of the two possible outcomes of the situation - killing the suicide bomber to be the most moral choice available since it leads to the least amount of bloodshed possible.

So, like I said, the act of killing in itself is always condemnable, but in reality we must always judge any act with regard to its context.
 
arg-fallbackName="atheismforthewin"/>
WolfAU said:
The Abrahamic faiths were never designed to make people 'moral', they were designed to control, manipulate and exploit the masses, telling them to do whatever they were told, to give their money to the church and be greatful for a shit life and spend all their life looking forward to a payoff they will never get.

For example, most of Old Testament was simply the law of the land, just as being prohibited from tax fraud today. But now that it is more heavily publicized with the label "Made in Heaven" instead of "Hammurabi's Code" and other writs of law and man made scripture, it is interpreted as the unwavering, infallible word of God. Indeed in the day, people were taught to read and study similar to current religious study, but it was enforced as law. And this change is phenomenal and so representative of how the social norm can change so rapidly and obviously without anyone raising a finger.
 
arg-fallbackName="encoctmebreu"/>
What you're talking about is nothing else than the immorality of weakness. These fanatics, wouldn't be able to feed themselves unless you hit them with a whip so why deny them that? To them god is nothing but a slavemaster. What they really seek is revenge, wish is only natural. "Hell are the believers paradise".
 
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