Dragan Glas
Well-Known Member
Greetings,
Evolution has everything to do with why we eat what we eat - to deny this is naive, to say the least.
These include, amongst others, a correlation for increased incidence of "depression, anxiety, and somatoform disorder, although causality cannot be established".
The problem with trying to follow a "well-planned" vegan diet is that you would have to visit your doctor at regular intervals to ensure that you're not suffering from dietary deficiencies.
Just to clarify where I stand: I no longer eat red meat but do eat white meat, particularly fish. Due to my diabetes (Type II), I've stopped drinking milk (which has the same levels of sugar as fruit drinks - 10g), and switched to soya (0.1g) for cereals, and tea.
Kindest regards,
James
:shock:Vego said:Our need for a healthy diet is a biological imperative that little to do with how we evolved,Dragan Glas said:I'd disagree with this statement on the grounds that eating a healthy diet is a moral imperative - not to do so is a form of suicide.
Evolution has everything to do with why we eat what we eat - to deny this is naive, to say the least.
Perhaps - but as we are the result of evolution...Vego said:mostly with the fact that we are alive and need food to stay alive (that would still be true without evolution).
Modern humans have only existed for a few hundred thousand years, and it is this recent evolution that affects what we can, and can't, eat. As evolved hunter-gatherers, we're omnivores.Vego said:Even the "best" diet for us today (if there is such a thing) doesn't have to be related to what we ate millions of years ago (maybe it is, maybe it isn't).
And a omni diet can be healthy, just like a vegan diet can be unhealthy.Vego said:I don't mind seeing a healthy diet as a moral imperative, but a vegan diet can be healthy, just like an omni diet can be unhealthy.
I'd argue that it is a factor.Vego said:There is no link between evolution and morality here.
Veganism is a form of vegetarianism. In fact, in India vegetarianism is veganism - it's just that in the West (particularly America), the latter term is used.Vego said:If one is unable to get the right balance necessary by following _any_ diet, then one may well have to eat some complementary foods.Dragan Glas said:If one is unable to get the right balance necessary by following a vegetarian diet, then one may well have to eat some animal-sourced foods.
Nothing original here, and still nothing against veganism (which is not the same as vegetarianism BTW), or for the necessity of animal products.
And yet the same article lists health issues associated with diets that exclude animal sourced foods - why would it have such if veganism was such a panacea?Vego said:That is actually the case, as actual familiarity with veganism will show you.Dragan Glas said:That is not necessarily the case, as a perusal of the above links will show you.
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You will find that nothing that I have said so far contradicts that, since I was already aware of all that.
These include, amongst others, a correlation for increased incidence of "depression, anxiety, and somatoform disorder, although causality cannot be established".
As a diabetic, I have a device that allows me to monitor my blood-glucose on a daily basis - you're not going to be able to do that as a vegan.Vego said:I don't want to spend too much time debunking long lists of false claims against veganism, so I will only focus on the ones that you find most relevant.Dragan Glas said:See also the following:
7 Nutrients That You Can't Get From Plant Foods
The three critical ones are vitamin B12, CoQ10 (from beef - critical for the heart), and zinc (second in importance only to iron).
B12
Animals don't produce B12 (cows get theirs from their gut flora, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12#Sources ):
And here is a quote from a scientific paper (the quote is from the text which is paywalled: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1389172304002610 ):B12 is produced in nature only by some prokaryotes (certain bacteria and archaea); it is not made by any multicellular or single-celled eukaryotes.
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Vegans get their B12 from bacteria, just like everyone else. No animal needed here.
CoQ10
"Biosynthesis occurs in most human tissue" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coenzyme_Q10#Biosynthesis ) and there are plant sources (oils, nuts, various fruits and vegetables: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coenzyme_Q10#Dietary_concentrations )
Zinc
Not produced by animals, and also available from plants and fortified food ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc#Dietary_intake )
Yes (to my claim), see above.Dragan Glas said:No - see above.
The problem with trying to follow a "well-planned" vegan diet is that you would have to visit your doctor at regular intervals to ensure that you're not suffering from dietary deficiencies.
I was referring to your claim about international shipping.Vego said:Which ones? The hypothetical about camels? It is a hypothetical illustrating a point about potential special conditions, doesn't really need evidence.Dragan Glas said:Again, these are claims without evidence.
International shipping? I know next to nothing about the topic, but I do know that there is less need for refrigeration when it comes to plant-based products (I can store a lot at room temperature). Less need for refrigeration seems like an advantage to me, maybe I am wrong and it isn't, but you only tried to provide an argument against a claim that I did not make.
The point being there was no moral imperative to switch to vegetarianism just because it might be more economic.Vego said:Your first link doesn't seem to say anything against veganism, only that animal products seem bad for the environment (I have nothing against that).Dragan Glas said:A couple of years ago I posted some links, the key one being this one - Inferno and I had a short chat about it in the afore-mentioned thread.
Just to clarify where I stand: I no longer eat red meat but do eat white meat, particularly fish. Due to my diabetes (Type II), I've stopped drinking milk (which has the same levels of sugar as fruit drinks - 10g), and switched to soya (0.1g) for cereals, and tea.
Kindest regards,
James