The KJV of the Bible is Flawed

[UnDeitized]

The King James Version of the Bible was translated from Latin; anyone who knows a brief history of the bible will be quick to point out that there are some problems with that.

Why? The books in the bible were written in Greek and Hebrew originally. Having a book translated from Latin is a translation of a translation...

Now go to Google translator and do this:
1. Type a message in English *so you know what you wrote* (if you're bilingual you can skip that step by writing it in the other language)
2. Translate it to a different language
3. Translate your results to a different language
4. Translate those results back in to English, and see how it matches up

I'm sure you'll get my point even if you don't do that.

The reason why I bring this up is that many/most/all fundamentalists in America are protestant, and the majority of them don't use King James Version because of the very fact that it's a translation of a translation (even though most of them don't know that). The reason why knowing this is important is because some Christians might not debate with you if you use the KJV.

 

[GoodKat]

I've actually encountered several fundies who insist that the KJV is the only true translation!

 

[enterman]

I've actually encountered several fundies who insist that the KJV is the only true translation!

Lol, every fundie believes they have the only true translation. My elementary school didn't allow any version except the KJV.

 

[GoodKat]

My elementary school didn't allow any version except the KJV.

Ditto, I probably know hundreds of verses in KJV.

 

[UnDeitized]

Lol, well then be sure to bring that up next time

 

[stuart]

There's only one KING JAMES, and he is in Cleveland.

 

[Nitrous]

Guys, theres a difference between mechanical translation and google translator. I know you're excited about this whole 'atheism' thing but don't let it get the best of you. Case in point, this isn't a persuasive argument and it can be easily refuted by a creationist with internet access. This will only serve to weaken the cause.

 

[ImprobableJoe]

Guys, theres a difference between mechanical translation and google translator. I know you're excited about this whole 'atheism' thing but don't let it get the best of you. Case in point, this isn't a persuasive argument and it can be easily refuted by a creationist with internet access. This will only serve to weaken the cause.

Yeah, what we should focus on is the fact that Bible stories in any translation don't make any fucking sense.

 

[UnDeitized]

Well of course there's a difference, but words translated from Greek to Latin to English won't always be the same... it does question it's credibility...

and of course you shouldn't use this as your MAIN argument, that would be silly...

 

[ebbixx]

I've actually encountered several fundies who insist that the KJV is the only true translation!

Same here. I run into far more hard core Bible literalists whose only acceptable translation is the KJV. Not to say there are no literalists who reject it as well.

 

[ebbixx]

Well of course there's a difference, but words translated from Greek to Latin to English won't always be the same... it does question it's credibility...

and of course you shouldn't use this as your MAIN argument, that would be silly...

Not that the true believers will find this at all interesting, but within Bible scholarship circles there is a near concensus that Jerome, the translator responsible for the (Latin) Vulgate, upon which most bibles up to and including the KJV are largely based... that Jerome was himself probably not fluent (and possibly largely ignorant) of the Aramaic and Hebrew dialects in which the Torah was first recorded. Keep in mind too that the Torah itself was not committed to written form until fairly late, there was a longstanding tradition of keeping it a strictly oral tradition until Jewish populations had been squeezed to the point where it was apparent that the oral tradition could easily be lost if a handful of Kohanim were killed.

At the very least, you will find a lot of modern translators and scholars questioning some of Jerome;s his readings of key passages, and a lot of rabbis and educated Jews laughing out loud (usually in private and away from vengeful Christian ears) at how Christians misread the Torah and other books relabeled as the "Old Testament" and don't have the knowledge of history and oral traditional to appreciate, for instance, that the Book of Esther is a pretty clearly a fictional comic narrative.

Since there have been times when one could be burned alive for spilling the beans, most Jews have sensibly chosen to say, "Yeah, yeah, whatever..." whenever the subject comes up. No point in riling the literalists up any more than they already are.

 

[GoodKat]

At the very least, you will find a lot of modern translators and scholars questioning some of Jerome;s his readings of key passages, and a lot of rabbis and educated Jews laughing out loud (usually in private and away from vengeful Christian ears) at how Christians misread the Torah and other books relabeled as the "Old Testament" and don't have the knowledge of history and oral traditional to appreciate, for instance, that the Book of Esther is a pretty clearly a fictional comic narrative.

I've always wanted to have a long conversation with a knowledgeable rabbi about the OT.

 

[Dirigoproductions]

Not that the true believers will find this at all interesting, but within Bible scholarship circles there is a near concensus that Jerome, the translator responsible for the (Latin) Vulgate, upon which most bibles up to and including the KJV are largely based... that Jerome was himself probably not fluent (and possibly largely ignorant) of the Aramaic and Hebrew dialects in which the Torah was first recorded.

Jerome was far from ignorant or stupid. I'm an atheist myself and can stand when people assume that those in antiquity didn't know what they were doing? Hieronymus, or Jerome in English lived from 347-420 CE. He didn't read Aramaic but that is irrelevant because he read and translated the Septuagint which was written in Greek.

Hieronymus was fluent in both Koine Greek and Latin, in fact he translated much of Eusebius' works from Greek into Latin as well as the bible. Hieronymus also spoke and read Hebrew, although he didn't write in it, nor was he very fluent in it. However, this Hebrew argument is arbitrary, because he read and translated the Torah and Tanach from the Septuagint which was the OT translated from Hebrew into Greek around 100 BCE.

If your going to claim a bad translation, start with the translation of the original Torah. The original version was written in Aramaic (which only a small group of them still speak and write to this day just outside of Jerusalem) and translated into Hebrew. Most of the mistakes start here, although many existed throughout the Medieval period as well.

 

[ebbixx]

I've always wanted to have a long conversation with a knowledgeable rabbi about the OT.

As the saying goes, you should really have at least six, with six different, knowledgeable rabbis.

 

[Otokogoroshi]

You could be the BEST translator in the world, fluent in all the necessary languages to translate A to B but regardless things are going to get lost.

First, off we have words that can't be translated. Words that frankly don't have a corresponding counter part in another language.

Second, you have words with multiple meanings that change depending on context and translating that context can be tricky.

Third, you have personal agendas. No one is completely unbiased.

Fourth, you have to assume the accuracy of the original text...


There is more to it but I don't care how brilliant or stupid the person who translated the bible from Greek to Latin was mistakes were made.

Anyone who thinks the bible is 100% transcribed from God to man is either very ignorant or a blithering idiot. Both of which can be cured if the individual is willing.

Many of the passages result from the 'telephone game' issue. Where when things are passed down orally they change with each retelling, sometimes a little, sometimes a lot.




Heck in the differences between the NIV (new international version) and the Catholic bible lots of words are different between the two. In one passage instead of saying 'family' the Catholic bible says 'friends'. That's a big bloody difference!!

 

[ebbixx]

Jerome was far from ignorant or stupid. I'm an atheist myself and can stand when people assume that those in antiquity didn't know what they were doing? Hieronymus, or Jerome in English lived from 347-420 CE. He didn't read Aramaic but that is irrelevant because he read and translated the Septuagint which was written in Greek.

I never said he was either ignorant or stupid (okay, I may have been typing too fast when I chose the word "ignorant" to describe his relationship to Hebrew, but I was shorthanding what I recalled of scholars who contend that there's little evidence that he all that was well-versed in it, and given his age, and my experience with adult language learners, it would truly be miraculous if he were able to claim true fluency. Of course, there's not that much hard evidence one way or the other, since there's no way to prove how much he translated himself and how much assistance he got from two companions in particular.

I said he wasn't fluent in Aramaic, and I'm not convinced, given my reading, that he was necessarily fully fluent in Greek, considering that he brought along "help," particularly in the person of Paula (and probably Eustochium Julia, Paula's daughter). Coming where he did in the history of early orthodoxy, he also had some pretty obvious prejudices, and some ideas about the body that tend to permeate his version of the text, and are all the more evident in his letters. Many of these ideas are ones that orthodoxy has gradually backed away from over the centuries. All these things (including his conficts with secular and church authorities) leave one asking how those prejudices and his sense of embattlement may have affected his translation.

I welcome your insights, btw, as it's been several years since I studied Jerome/Hieronymus's history and mysteries closely, and I'm sure my perspective is far from the only one possible, given how many gaps there are in the record, and how biased many of the sources on his life and times might tend to be.

However, even giving him the benefit of the doubt on the Greek, that does seem to imply (at least to me) that his OT translation was relying on a translation that itself was already deeply flawed, especially in the sense that doctrines like the Trinity were hardly conceivable within Aramaic or a Hebrew world view, and Hellenic concepts had to be dragooned to reconcile the whole mess in any way whatsoever.

Since this seems to be a casual forum rather than a moderated list for bible scholars, please forgive me if I tend to get a little loose at times, for effect, and to avoid writing an academic paper, or boring everybody to death.

 

[Cyrathil]

I've actually encountered several fundies who insist that the KJV is the only true translation!

Sadly I feel these are the same people who believe that if "English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for the US. Keep English the national language!" You can't take those people seriously...

 

[buzzausa]

There's only one KING JAMES, and he is in Cleveland.

AMEN brother....AMEN

 

[Pulsar]

Sadly I feel these are the same people who believe that if "English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for the US. Keep English the national language!" You can't take those people seriously...

Reminds me of Johannes Goropius Becanus, a 16th-century physician and linguist who had somehow figured out that the original language, spoken by Adam and Eve, was... Dutch. Antwerpian Flemish, to be exact. In fact, he even tought that the Garden of Eden had been in Flanders. And that Egyptian hieroglyphics represented Flemish... fun guy
Not much has changed since then, the people of Antwerp still think the world revolves around them .

 

[theatheistguy]

The King James Version of the Bible was translated from Latin

Please see these:
1. http://www.av1611.org/kjv/kjvhist.html
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorized_King_James_Version
None of the KJV was translated from Latin, only 2 Esdras from the Apocrypha, was translated from the Latin Vulgate.