he_who_is_nobody
Well-Known Member
leroy said:he_who_is_nobody said:Again, the Fine-Tuning Argument states this universe is perfect for life, yet you keep making analogies demonstrating that either things are not perfect because the creator has limits or the creator does not care to make something perfect for X in the first place. You have to realize that you are proving my point every time you create this analogies by now. Do not be upset with me, because I am pointing out the logical short comings of your analogies; the faults lies with you. Maybe just drop the analogies all together, since you always argue my side with them. You know what works better than analogies? Evidence. .
however you are still saying that perfect necessary imples "that contains 100% of life" you haven done anything to support that claim.
I have never claimed that. What I have claimed is that claiming X is perfect for Y when X only supports less than one percent of Y is asinine. In what way is something containing less than one percent of something else perfect for that something else? As I have already stated, that strongly implies whatever X is, Y was not made for it, thus cannot be perfect for it. You are the one that is trying to claim that something perfect made X for Y well readily admitting that Y is only in less than one percent of X. This is something you need to square with your beliefs.
leroy said:Again, that definition states things should be perfect for life if Fine-Tuning is true, yet you readily admit that this universe is not perfect for life. Thus, I am not sure how you can claim this universe is finely-tuned when you readily admit this universe is not perfect for life. Other universes are irrelevant at this point since we both already agree to this.
you are obviously not following, the conversation.
My statement was that even if this where the only possible universe, the universe would still be finally tuned. nothing in the definition of fine tuning suggest otherwise.
So unless you quote form the definition anything that suggest otherwise, you have to admit that you where wrong on that point.
How is this universe fine-tuned when you have failed to present any evidence that it is fine-tuned? All you have done is proclaimed it to be so. Now you need to demonstrate that those initial conditions were fine-tuned. The fact that you keep side stepping this leads me to believe that you cannot.
leroy said:We already agreed on what fine-tuning means and we agreed on what the initial conditions of our universe were. Thus, the next step is you demonstrating that the initial conditions were finely-tuned. How many times does that have to be spelled out to you? The fact that you have not attempted this next step, but only proclaimed it, strongly suggests you have nothing but an empty bag. Again, whenever you are ready, I will be happy to look at your evidence or evidence.
Ok, and if for example gravity would have been 1% stronger this would be a life prohibiting universe, this is what it is meant by fine tuning, given that you agree with this statement, you also agree that the universe is finely tuned.
:facepalm:
All you have is a counterfactual conditional to offer up? I pointed this out in the blog and yet you still rely on this logical fallacy? That means after months of this we are back at square one of you trying to get out of meeting your burden? How pathetic.
If the queen had balls, he would be the king. Again, we have a universe sample of one. You do not know that the initial condition can be anything else, nor do you know that if we change them what that would lead to besides being different from ours. In order for this to work, you need to demonstrate other universes exist, that they can be different, those differences do lead to life not existing, and the initial conditions we see here are the best set possible. Please meet your burden and stop relying on logical fallacies.
Beyond all this, I need to point something out:
Wikipedia - Fine-tuning said:In theoretical physics, fine-tuning refers to circumstances when the parameters of a model must be adjusted very precisely in order to agree with observations.
This is the definition of Fine-Tuning that we agreed too. See how that states that our models are fine-tuned and not the universe? That means simply agreeing with the definition of fine-tuning does not mean I agree that the initial conditions of our universe were fine-tuned. Yes, our models need to be fine-tuned, but the map is not the terrain.
leroy said:.Just like I thought, no math, just empty assertions. What else was I expecting? Demonstrate using mathematics that you are not using a logical fallacy. Should be easy for you since you already know it is a fact. You even say it is demonstrably true, so demonstrate it is true. I can wait
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
if you are unable to understand simple sentence, what makes you think that you can understand a mathematical proof?
Adorable. Made even more adorable by you demonstrating that you do not understand probability.
leroy said:well this is my mathematical proof,
There are 3 possibilities regarding the fine tuning of the universe....
1 The FT of the universe is explained by design, the probability of this being true is X
2 The FT of the universe is caused by chance the probability of these being true is Y
3 The FT of the universe is caused by something else, it has an other explanation, the probability of Z
X+Y+Z = 100% agree? and each letter has a value bigger than 0%
Just like I predicted, you have incorrectly defined your sample space. Thank you for demonstrating that you do not know the first thing about probability. There are more than just three possibilities. Thus, one cannot just add up three options to find out there likelihood. This is the point of the Holmesian Fallacy, which you have just brilliantly demonstrated that you are making.
leroy said:If "2" is falsified........then......
given that 2 was falsified...
The probability of 1 being true would be X + 0.5Y and the probability of 3 would be Z+0.5Y
given that X+0.5Y is necessarily grater than X one can easily conclude that I am correct, falsifying one competing hypothesis makes your hypothesis more probability true than before.
And this is were you fail. You would be correct if the only options we had were three. However, your third option in reality is nearing infinity in the amount of answers it can generate. Again, you are not correctly defining your sample space (i.e. garbage in, garbage out). You would first have to prove that there are only three options before your probability would be true. Again, his is the whole point of the Holmesian Fallacy, thank you once again for brilliantly demonstrating that you are making it. The fact that all current options could be wrong and a different option is the correct answer means the possible solutions nears infinity.
leroy said:I am aware of the fact that I am oversimplifying the math, but feel free to use robust and more precise methods, the conclusion will remain the same falsifying 1 competing hypothesis makes your hypothesis more probably true than before.
Your failure comes from incorrectly defining your sample space, just like I predicted; which is why you are making the Holmesian Fallacy. Your example would be correct only if there were three options, since you cannot prove that, your sample space approaches infinity.
leroy said:if you disagree please prove me wrong using your math.
I will give you another chance, because I do enjoy laughing at your hubris. Just an FYI: it would be X+Y+Z+∞ = 100%.
leroy said:Nor does that fallacy state that something is true, it says something is believed to be true (i.e. more probably true). You even highlighted that part, thus on some level you have to know that you are full of shit when trying to make this argument. How pathetic can you honestly get? Again, let us see the math, because this sad attempt at semantics is beneath even you
once again, Reeeeeeeeed......
however it is still a fact that disproving 1 hypothesis makes other competitive hypothesis more probably true than before,
Read what? That you do not know what you are talking about? Again, you have incorrectly defined your sample space. Using a more correct sample space shows that before and after are irrelevant.