The Evidence Bible?

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

Shouldn't that be ...

... ?

Kindest regards,

James

 

[quantumfireball2099]

[centre]

[/centre]

That's Gandalf, not Dumbledore... edit fail.

 

[Prolescum]

Greetings,

Shouldn't that be ...

http://www.f150online.com/forums/me...-picture48687-yoda-do-do-not-there-no-try.jpg

... ?

Kindest regards,

James

No...

[centre]http://www.coolorama.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/eb46207a56trollq.jpg.jpg[/centre]

That's Gandalf, not Dumbledore... edit fail.

Gag spotting fail, mere liek

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

I do understand how women were (and still are) viewed. My point was; How does Ray and his ilk KNOW that this is why Paul left the women out of his accouting of the story? Maybe Paul didn't know what happened at the tomb? Maybe he was making it up?

Understood.

There's also the belief that Paul had women-issues.

There are a number of problems with Paul's account of the Resurrection - to name but two:

1) He appears to have known the basic story but excluded the part about the women having seen Jesus first: possibly to enhance his own standing in the community through his association with Peter, whom he claims (Corinthians) was the first person to see Jesus - though he (and Luke) give no details. It's clear that this attempted suppression failed.

2) His interpretation of the Resurrection is of a spiritual, rather than a physical, one - in contradiction to that of the other early Christian fathers. As Bishop Spong notes, in Resurrection: Myth or Reality):

Paul never used anything but the passive verb to discuss the Easter event and he used that form thirty-seven times. For Paul, Jesus was raised by God. Jesus did not rise. It is a simple distinction to make, but it has overwhelmingly important consequences"¦We must keep in mind that Paul knew nothing of an event called the ascension that was separate or different from Jesus' resurrection. Paul's writings contain no hint of the two-stage process that would develop later, where resurrection brought Jesus from the grave back to life and ascension then took Jesus from earth to heaven. Paul's proclamation was that God had raised Jesus into God's very life. That was Easter for Paul. For Paul there were no empty tombs, no disappearance from the grave of the physical body, no physical resurrection, no physical appearances of a Christ who would eat fish, offer his wounds for inspection, or rise physically into the sky after an appropriate length of time. None of these ideas can be found in reading Paul. For Paul the body of Jesus who died was perishable, weak, physical. The Jesus who was raised was clothed by the raising God with a body fit for God's kingdom. It was imperishable, glorified, and spiritual.

If I remember correctly, some time ago I read a book about St. Paul (The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity, by Hyam Maccoby) where the author pointed out that he is referred to as an apostle 22 times - all but 2 times by himself(!) The only two times he's called an apostle by someone else is by Luke, his "second biggest fan"(!)

Kindest regards,

James

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

I'm already going to say it - Sticky Please? This seems like a good LoR community project.

pg. 435 (Romans)

Q: "Will people who have never heard the gospel all go to hell because they haven't heard about Jesus Christ?"
A: No one will go to hell because they haven't heard of Jesus Christ. The heathen will go to hell for murder, rape, adultery, lust, theft, lying, etc. Sin is not failing to hear the gospel. Rather, "sin is the transgression of the Law" (1 John 3:4). If we really care about the lost, we will become missionaries and take the good news of God's forgiveness in Christ to them.
See John 16:9 footnote.

This statement doesn't even address the horrible nature of the question's accuracy. The question is not "What sends them to Hell" but, really, "Why should people go to hell if they've never had a chance to be saved?"
This is a statement of non-sequitor reasoning, where the speakers of this pathetic apologetic statement ignore the blunt truth - People are going to hell because they have not heard the story of Christ, they do not know that they need to be saved, and so on. They will be paying eternally for not even hearing about this Christ and his sacrifice, or having the ability to become saved.
They are going to this hell for not knowing about this supposed Creator, his many Laws, and even having the ABILITY to accept this savior.

------------------------------

pg. 439 (Romans)

"I would sooner bring one sinner to Jesus than unravel all the mysteries of the Word, for salvation is the thing we are to live for."
CHARLES SPURGEON

Unfortunately for Mr. Spurgeon, his colleagues would rather think otherwise by rewriting and using pathetic apologetic statements to try and unravel the mysteries of this world through lies, deceit, and selling snake oil to the uneducated masses. Their goal is not shared with you, Charles Spurgeon, and I'm sorry they utilized your quote in this pile of shit they would call "Literature."

 

[Andiferous]

There's also the belief that Paul had women-issues.

Euphemistically, yes. I think Paul made me quit the bible.

 

[Mikha'el2012]

First I would like to say this is the kind of blog of discussions I would expect to find on a site called the League of Reason. For The Bible or Spirituality or belief in Christ Jesus is not something that can be obtained through normal human logic or reasoning.In order to obtain anything spiritual it must be given by God.
Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

And

1 Cor 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written: " I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."
20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

And again to hit it home to you children of the devil

2 Cor 2:6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written: " Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Again it is written of the children of the devil

42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.
43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.
46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?
47 He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God."

God is Spirit and He must be worshipped in Spirit and in Truth.

John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." And none can even come to Christ Jesus unless The Father draws them as it is written
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves.
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Furthermore before you get on topics or start rumors about stuff you know absolutely nothing about. Actually think about what you write or what you write against. Because that so called fairy tale book is God inspired and it takes The Spirit of God to understand it. To get the things of God ti has to be given you from God.

2 Timothy 316 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

My prayer is that the eyes of your understanding would be enlightened. That you would heed the words of the prophet Isaiah 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: ' Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'
May God bless you and Christ Jesus The Lord and Saviour of the world be with you all

 

[australopithecus]

And again to hit it home to you children of the devil

This new crop of Enyart fanboys are a lot less polite than the last crop.

Insulting the forum members in your first post is a very VERY stupid thing to do. Next time, and I imagine there will be, you'll be going on a little break away from the forum. Try reading the rules, eh?

 

[Visaki]

So what you're basically saying, Mikha'el2012, is that you can only believe the stories in the Bible and in Jesus Christ (in a christian way) if God wants it to happen? That's nice. If God wants me to be an atheist who am I to disagree? Though it would be hypocritical of him to punish me for being what he wants me to be, wouldn't you agree?

Oh, and welcome to the forum. Don't forget to read the rules.

 

[Frenger]

Actually think about what you write or what you write against. Because that so called fairy tale book is God inspired and it takes The Spirit of God to understand it. To get the things of God ti has to be given you from God.

I see, so

Jeremiah 19 : 9 - And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them.

Zechariah 14 : 2 - For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city

Exodus 12 : 29 - And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

Genesis 6 : 5-7 - The Lord saw that the wickedness of humankind was great in the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually. And the Lord was sorry that he had made humankind on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the Lord said, 'I will blot out from the earth the human beings I have created,people together with animals and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.'

This is all god inspired is it? Is god then perhaps a murdering, animal slaughtering, cannibalism inciting, rape endorsing maniac?

 

[Dragan Glas]

Greetings,

Welcome to LoR, Mikha'el2012!

First I would like to say this is the kind of blog of discussions I would expect to find on a site called the League of Reason. For The Bible or Spirituality or belief in Christ Jesus is not something that can be obtained through normal human logic or reasoning.In order to obtain anything spiritual it must be given by God.

I assume you believe that we are souls with God-given free will!?

The problem is that, if this is true, then God cannot intervene in any way, at all, otherwise It will rob us of that very same "free" will.

Do you understand this?

Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

And

1 Cor 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written: " I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."
20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

And again to hit it home to you children of the devil

2 Cor 2:6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written: " Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Again it is written of the children of the devil

42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.
43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.
46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?
47 He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God."

God is Spirit and He must be worshipped in Spirit and in Truth.

John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." And none can even come to Christ Jesus unless The Father draws them as it is written
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves.
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Furthermore before you get on topics or start rumors about stuff you know absolutely nothing about. Actually think about what you write or what you write against. Because that so called fairy tale book is God inspired and it takes The Spirit of God to understand it. To get the things of God ti has to be given you from God.

2 Timothy 316 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

My prayer is that the eyes of your understanding would be enlightened. That you would heed the words of the prophet Isaiah 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: ' Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'
May God bless you and Christ Jesus The Lord and Saviour of the world be with you all

The problem with quoting texts that have come down to us through millennia of translations is that we cannot be certain what was the original and what's been added and/or edited.at different stages - even from the earliest times, when the same or different oral traditions were recorded by various writers.

Again, if there is a Creator, It cannot intervene - including inspiring.

Also, referring to others as "children of the devil,£ is un-Christian - it indicates someone whose mind, if not heart, is closed to others.

Kindest regards,

James

 

[Mikha'el2012]

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man --- and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

 

[CommonEnlightenment]

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man --- and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Read Carefully

Also

 

[australopithecus]

If all you're going to do is spam Bible verses I advise you actually start making a reasoned argument with actual content. Because spam isn't a good thing.

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

If we're going to spam nonsense, why not make it worth reading?

Here is a lesson in creative writing.
First rule: Do not use semicolons. They are transvestite hermaphrodites representing absolutely nothing. All they do is show you've been to college.

And I realize some of you may be having trouble deciding whether I am kidding or not. So from now on I will tell you when I'm kidding.

For instance, join the National Guard or the Marines and teach democracy. I'm kidding.

We are about to be attacked by Al-Qaida. Wave flags if you have them. That always seems to scare them away. I'm kidding.

If you want to really hurt your parents, and you don't have the nerve to be gay, the least you can do is go into the arts. I'm not kidding. The arts are not a way to make a living. They are a very human way of making life more bearable. Practising an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possibly can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something.

 

[Prolescum]

Although it's utterly irrelevant and Sirens of Titan is one of my favourite books, Vonnegut is wrong here; semicolons are ace.

.semicolon {
padding-right: 1px;
float: right;
}

 

[)O( Hytegia )O(]

Although it's utterly irrelevant and Sirens of Titan is one of my favourite books, Vonnegut is wrong here; semicolons are ace.

.semicolon {
padding-right: 1px;
float: right;
}

In the final chapter of his book, he uses a semicolon. I can't find it on-hand (my better half is borrowing it for a moment) but the point was that sometimes rules are made to be broken - even his own.

 

[theyounghistorian77]

Evidence Bible[/url]"]"My God would never create hell."

Those who say that are right: their "god" would never create hell, because he couldn't. He doesn't exist. He is a figment of their imagination, a god they have created to suit themselves. It's called "idolatry," and it's the oldest sin in the Book. Idolaters will not inherit the kingdom of God. The one true God, however, could and did create hell for those who reject His mercy. They will reap His just wrath. (For the reasonableness of hell, see Psalm 55:15 footnote.)

Projection.

Circular logic

:lol:

Evidence Bible[/url]"] "If the Jews are God's 'chosen people,' why have they been so oppressed?"

Israel's blessings were dependent upon her obedience. If the nation sinned, it would be chastened. This is God's warning to the Jews, followed by His promised restoration: "The Lord shall scatter you among all people, from the one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known, even wood and stone. And among these nations shall you find no ease, neither shall the sole of your foot have rest: but the Lord shall give you there a trembling heart, and failing eyes, and sorrow of mind" (Deuteronomy 28:64,65).

"In the latter years you shall come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them" (Ezekiel 38:8).

I've seen some retarded theology before that makes out that (to paraphrase) since the Jews supposedly went astray from what their god wanted of them, therefore, Holocaust was Justified. No prizes for guessing which bible verses they used to justify this "theology".

Evidence Bible[/url]"]"Religion has caused more wars than anything else in history."

It is true that man has used religion for political gain. Nazi Germany had "God with us" engraved in German on the belts of Nazi soldiers. America said, "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition." The law may even allow you to start the Christian Nazi Party, if you so desire. You can become a "reverend" for a few dollars through the tabloid classifieds and then further your political agenda with the world's blessing, no matter how much it smears the name of Christ.

Jesus tells us in John 16:2,3 that there will be some who, in their error, commit atrocities and murder in the name of God: "The time is coming that whosoever kills you will think that he does God service." However, He informs us that these are not true believers: "And these things will they do to you, because they have not known the Father, nor me." (See also 1 John 3:15.)

Jesus told His followers to love their enemies. So if a man puts a knife into someone's back in the name of Christianity, something obviously isn't right. If we human beings can detect it, how much more will God? He will deal with it on Judgment Day.

"I know that the Lord is always on the side of right. But it is my constant
anxiety and prayer that I,and this nation,should be on the Lord's side."
-Abraham Lincoln

Ray Comfort turning "180" degrees right there. :lol:

Why do i have the feeling that something like this is exactly how Ray started up his own ministry? :lol:

And the rest of it is just a badly written "No true scotsman" :ugeek:

 

[Daealis]

//edit: I opened it with the standard pdf-reader, already preinstalled in mah Win7, worked just fine. HP machine, they come pretty stuffed with preinstalled garbage.

Just by skimming through the first one I mostly saw footnotes depicting some other passage related to the selected passage. Not really all that useful for actually debating the issue with someone knowledgeable, more like the counters to assholey-teenagers shouting things between the lines. These footonotes are pretty much more of the same, my bible at least has footnotes already. These just can reference outside the bible, but it's the same kind of "one-upping"-material. Still, let us shred one asunder.

I figured I'd start in romans, since I feel like it's one of the most used letters in the NT.

Romans 1:20 :For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

And the Footnote of that:

1:20 Faith in God is not "blind faith"; it is based on the fact of God's existence seen clearly through creation.
"This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being." Sir Isaac Newton
"The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator." Louis Pasteur

There we go, it's an easy start to show you off as a knowledgeable chap with pretty quotes from big names from the times when christianity was the standard. Before we actually developped a better working model of the universe and biology.

As a footone to the footnote, I just realised that this might very well be the passage where Comfort actually concocted his infamous "There's X, there must be an X:eeeerr"-argument from.

One could easily quote Carl Sagan as a counterargument with his inspiring "starstuff", since the chapter nor it's footnote thus far hasn't had any more substance than a few quotes:

"The surface of the Earth is the shore of the cosmic ocean. On this shore, we've learned most of what we know. Recently, we've waded a little way out, maybe ankle-deep, and the water seems inviting. Some part of our being knows this is where we came from. We long to return, and we can, because the cosmos is also within us. We're made of star stuff. We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."

But fear not, for the footnote wasn't even half done by this point!

1:20 How to prove God's existence. When I look at a building, how do I know that there was a builder? I can't see him, hear him, touch, taste, or smell him. Of course, the building is proof that there was a builder. In fact, I couldn't want better evidence that there was a builder than to have the building in front of me. I don't need "faith" to know that there was a builder. All I need is eyes that can see and a brain that works.

Likewise, when I look at a painting, how can I know that there was a painter? Again, the painting is proof positive that there was a painter. I don't need "faith" to believe in a painter because I can see the clear evidence.

The same principle applies with the existence of God. When I look at creation, how can I know that there was a Creator? I can't see Him, hear Him, touch Him, taste Him, or smell Him. How can I know that He exists? Why, creation shows me that there is a Creator. I couldn't want better proof that a Creator exists than to have the creation in front of me. I don't need faith to believe in a Creator; all I need is eyes that can see and a brain that works: "For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (Romans 1:20).

And there we go, the one and only, the original(at least the most commonly referred version I've seen) "If X=true then X:er=true"-argument. If there is a wank, there must be a wanker. And I'm going through the sticky bits voluntarily, there's propably something wrong with my head too.

Yes, there are plenty of things that are complex that need some outside source to produce, so it must follow that everything complex needs a creator? Everything leads to more complexity and something that made that, but if you get them into this line of questioning you will eventually bump to the beginning. The Ultimate Creator, that isn't created by anything, and doesn't require anything other than "faith" in order to exist. I'll give you a quote that at least to me clarifies the false analogy of it somewhat nicely.

The watchmaker is a false analogy because it assumes that because two objects share one common quality, they must have another quality in common.
A watch is complex
A watch has a watchmaker
The universe is also complex
Therefore the universe has a watchmaker

It is best clarified by another example:

Leaves are complex cellulose structures
Leaves grow on trees
Money bills are also complex cellulose structures
Therefore money grow on trees

The whole argument simply doesn't hold water. But the issue of refuting it comes in when you try to show with examples the possibility of complexity without a creator. No matter how grand or small scale you will go, since they don't accept the scientific theorems surrounding stellar formation, planetary evolution or evolution in general, they will not accept that it's an ungoverned phenomena. We could show that there is a way to "evolve" even programs with small variations into a complex system. Even if you could give them a solid proof that this is really how it works, they will simply revert back to their point that there always is a huge powerful being behind the rules that make this complex thing happen. Not that Ray or his ilk propably ever will accept any scientifically sound ideas, but this argument leads nowhere with the possibility of falling back to unprovable, untestable, untangible Ultimate Creator.

If, however, I want the builder to do something for me, then I need to have faith in him. The same applies to God: "Without faith it is impossible to please Him: for He that comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him" (Hebrews 11:6).

That's simply wrong. You do not need faith in a builder to have something done. You simply need to throw enough money at him. But I guess that's what the child sacrifices were all about. Baby blood, the currency of prayer-filling gods.

And since they graciously provided us with a quotation from Hebrews, let's rip that one apart as well, shall we?

This passage of Hebrews is a great for pointing out that their god does not actually save children, nor does he pity those who simply haven't found him(secluded tribes -thing). From here on out it might degenerate into a discussion of original sin or, probably, the issue gets shuffled aside for his sermon to continue.

Either way, that's just ONE of the passages and the footnotes of it. And my half-baked shred of it. It pains to even look at this garbage.

 

[prycejosh]

Isn't this basically an admission that the actual bible is insufficient as evidence? :lol:

I really think these guys want to just rewrite the whole bible. And all of history.

evidence of the bible is its theories and the landsites of the jews. both make total sense.